Bob Duff: Clearly, Cleary's time must be done The Red Wings need to thank Daniel Cleary for his decade of service to the team as a player and move on.

I have a feeling Holland will talk to him and let him know where he stands with the team and they are greatful for everything but his time is up. Likely offer him a position with the organization so he's still a part of it.

my guess,

Let's keep Cleary so we can lose another young kid on waivers.

Let's keep Cleary so we can lose another young kid on waivers.
- Feds91Stammer

We would LOVE another Nestrasil please.

if he keeps Cleary. needs to go after a big center and get help on defense.

why is Kenny so (frank)ing loyal to these players. yes, Cleary was great in 08 and 09 to help the team win. but that was several years ago now.

If Holland resigns Cleary to play on the roster... it will cause a firestorm with his team. The younger players will really be pissed. There is simply NO room for old washed up players anymore. His blind loyalty to some of these old useless players has already hurt this team. He's kept some of veterans from the old glory days way too long (READ: Maltby, Cleary, Samuelsson, Chelios, etc...) to the detriment of the team. If you want to give them a role in the organization... fine. But keep them out of a uniform and off the ice when the puck drops.

Keeping a roster spot for Cleary already cost us Nestrasil to be lost on waivers (whom we could have traded for a pick).

If Holland resigns Cleary to play on the roster... it will cause a firestorm with his team. The younger players will really be pissed. There is simply NO room for old washed up players anymore. His blind loyalty to some of these old useless players has already hurt this team. He's kept some of veterans from the old glory days way too long (READ: Maltby, Cleary, Samuelsson, Chelios, etc...) to the detriment of the team. If you want to give them a role in the organization... fine. But keep them out of a uniform and off the ice when the puck drops.

Keeping a roster spot for Cleary already cost us Nestrasil to be lost on waivers (whom we could have traded for a pick).
- Vladdie_Kon1

It baffles me. Is there anything at all that Cleary brings to the table that justifies his position?

As Ken Holland would say, he's a good locker room guy and he works hard..........

i say the same thing you guys do, he cant possibly be signed

id be mad even if its a 2 way contract at league minimum

i would have thought no babcock, no cleary?

i say the same thing you guys do, he cant possibly be signed

id be mad even if its a 2 way contract at league minimum

i would have thought no babcock, no cleary?
- digitalbath

Babcock had nothing to do with Cleary. 2 way contract has nothing to do with it. It's all on Holland who hasn't done poop since the lockout.

Babcock had nothing to do with Cleary. 2 way contract has nothing to do with it. It's all on Holland who hasn't done poop since the lockout.
- Feds91Stammer

Mini rant here. (not directed towards you)

babcock was a huge advocate for cleary to come back, and to be honest what could holland have done totally different?

im not saying hes the absolute best GM, i personally dont think hes stellar, I also dont think hes as bad as the wrap hes given. I wish we had gotten to keep Yzerman as our GM. but..He goes after the UFA's and they didnt want to come to detroit, thats not on him

he went after Hossa, no dice

went after Parise and Sutter, no dice

went after Niskanin + every other decent defender last year, no dice

he offered more money than some of those other teams and they simply didnt want to be here

He keeps a good core here, he has good scouts and between him and them they draft very well, he plays a huge part in that, he signs fair contracts

the only things i would say i would have done different, or that he did "wrong" were trade Filp and Hudler before they left detroit for a few draft picks, we all knew they wouldnt stay.

i wouldnt have sign gustavsson and cleary again last time around, (i obviously do not like the weiss contract but NO ONE knew he would never live up to the deal, he WAS good at the time of signing, so i dont hold that against him) but the absolute worst part about keeping cleary was losing nestrasil.

he made some good trades with cole and zid this last year,

i just really feel like anything he does is always going to make people unhappy and think he should have done it different. He makes a trade it isnt the one people want, he doesnt make a trade it makes everyone mad we didnt do the deal.

People want trades that simply dont exist, no one will take a bunch of trash cans for a superstar

Mini rant here. (not directed towards you)

babcock was a huge advocate for cleary to come back, and to be honest what could holland have done totally different?

im not saying hes the absolute best GM, i personally dont think hes stellar, I also dont think hes as bad as the wrap hes given. I wish we had gotten to keep Yzerman as our GM. but..He goes after the UFA's and they didnt want to come to detroit, thats not on him

he went after Hossa, no dice

went after Parise and Sutter, no dice

went after Niskanin + every other decent defender last year, no dice

he offered more money than some of those other teams and they simply didnt want to be here

He keeps a good core here, he has good scouts and between him and them they draft very well, he plays a huge part in that, he signs fair contracts

the only things i would say i would have done different, or that he did "wrong" were trade Filp and Hudler before they left detroit for a few draft picks, we all knew they wouldnt stay.

i wouldnt have sign gustavsson and cleary again last time around, (i obviously do not like the weiss contract but NO ONE knew he would never live up to the deal, he WAS good at the time of signing, so i dont hold that against him) but the absolute worst part about keeping cleary was losing nestrasil.

he made some good trades with cole and zid this last year,

i just really feel like anything he does is always going to make people unhappy and think he should have done it different. He makes a trade it isnt the one people want, he doesnt make a trade it makes everyone mad we didnt do the deal.

People want trades that simply dont exist, no one will take a bunch of trash cans for a superstar
- digitalbath

Agree with you on all points.... But I'd like to add a couple.

Weiss was coming off a bad wrist injury right before the Wings signed him. He hadn't played hardly at all after the injury to prove he could still put up major points like he did in Florida. He's not a good skater and doesn't have speed. So throwing that much money at him was still risky IMO. I thought 5 mil was too much at the time with the recent injury. I was also very against paying Filpula 5 mil per season... but Filpula surprised a LOT of us with how well he's played in Tampa. He's fit in perfectly with Tampa and complemented their lineup very well. Yzerman did well with that signing... and if the Bolts win the Cup then he outsmarted his mentor Ken Holland.

Another thing I'll add is Holland sucks at trades (when he RARELY makes them)... his record shows that. He gave up Jarnkrok in that terrible Legwand trade with Nashville AND a draft pick for a mediocre rental player. Jarnkrok is getting regular minutes in Nashville. Wings got a mediocre rental who did NOT make the difference of them reaching the playoffs that year.

I do think Holland is a very good GM. But my biggest complaint has always been his blind loyalty to the old veterans and his consistent reluctance to entertain trades to improve the team. I think Sven once posted that Holland had made like the fewest trades in the last 15 years of all GM's in the NHL (or something like that).

Agree with you on all points.... But I'd like to add a couple.

Weiss was coming off a bad wrist injury right before the Wings signed him. He hadn't played hardly at all after the injury to prove he could still put up major points like he did in Florida. He's not a good skater and doesn't have speed. So throwing that much money at him was still risky IMO. I thought 5 mil was too much at the time with the recent injury. I was also very against paying Filpula 5 mil per season... but Filpula surprised a LOT of us with how well he's played in Tampa. He's fit in perfectly with Tampa and complemented their lineup very well. Yzerman did well with that signing... and if the Bolts win the Cup then he outsmarted his mentor Ken Holland.

Another thing I'll add is Holland sucks at trades (when he RARELY makes them)... his record shows that. He gave up Jarnkrok in that terrible Legwand trade with Nashville AND a draft pick for a mediocre rental player. Jarnkrok is getting regular minutes in Nashville. Wings got a mediocre rental who did NOT make the difference of them reaching the playoffs that year.

I do think Holland is a very good GM. But my biggest complaint has always been his blind loyalty to the old veterans and his consistent reluctance to entertain trades to improve the team. I think Sven once posted that Holland had made like the fewest trades in the last 15 years of all GM's in the NHL (or something like that).
- Vladdie_Kon1

this is absolutely true, hes made the least amount and he is overly loyal, but to the opposite spectrum you see GM's give up on a player far too soon, trade them and regret it terribly. Seguin. But seriously, i wish we knew the exact trades that are available, or offered to holland and see just how bad he is, the jankrok trade was bad for sure, but the zid/cole trade was really good. so i actually dont think hes the WORST at trading, just not good at all. Hes afraid of making a BIG trade is what it is.

Mini rant here. (not directed towards you)

babcock was a huge advocate for cleary to come back, and to be honest what could holland have done totally different?

im not saying hes the absolute best GM, i personally dont think hes stellar, I also dont think hes as bad as the wrap hes given. I wish we had gotten to keep Yzerman as our GM. but..He goes after the UFA's and they didnt want to come to detroit, thats not on him

he went after Hossa, no dice

went after Parise and Sutter, no dice

went after Niskanin + every other decent defender last year, no dice

he offered more money than some of those other teams and they simply didnt want to be here

He keeps a good core here, he has good scouts and between him and them they draft very well, he plays a huge part in that, he signs fair contracts

the only things i would say i would have done different, or that he did "wrong" were trade Filp and Hudler before they left detroit for a few draft picks, we all knew they wouldnt stay.

i wouldnt have sign gustavsson and cleary again last time around, (i obviously do not like the weiss contract but NO ONE knew he would never live up to the deal, he WAS good at the time of signing, so i dont hold that against him) but the absolute worst part about keeping cleary was losing nestrasil.

he made some good trades with cole and zid this last year,

i just really feel like anything he does is always going to make people unhappy and think he should have done it different. He makes a trade it isnt the one people want, he doesnt make a trade it makes everyone mad we didnt do the deal.

People want trades that simply dont exist, no one will take a bunch of trash cans for a superstar
- digitalbath

Not suggesting he should be fired but he's been a very average GM in the cap era.

His cap mismanagement is why he couldn't retain Hossa.

He traded a 1st for a guy he lost on waivers in Quincey. I do like Quincey.

Overly loyal and bad contracts: Franzen, Ericsson, Zetterberg, and Kindl.

Losing Nestrasil because you just had to have Cleary.

In this era I think you have to make some trades to acquire talent because the free agent market isn't what it used to be and Holland is too afraid to make a trade that has long term implications.

To me this steady hey we made the playoffs stuff is crap. Make some moves and try to be a contender.

I beg to differ on KH.

His decisiveness has kept us a playoff longer than we should have been.

*The Legwand trade stabilized our center hole just enough to get us into the playoffs. Although "the hook" is getting regular minutes in Nashville, who would you take of the lineup right now to replace put him in? Honestly... at the time, he had as much promise as maybe Jurco, but in all honesty the best sure bet KH had at the time was ensuring Legwand would give us enough to get into the playoffs... and he did.

*As far as trades go, you cannot be too hypocritical, because in all honesty... if you are complaining about losing youth, trades is the biggest way to lose them ^^^ as per above. You cannot have it both ways... complain about the youth that has been lost but yet complain he doesnt make trades. NO ONE will trade for Miller, Cleary or any old vet... so make up your mind, lose youth in a trade or not trade youth.

*The challenge you see right now, is that we have too much youthful potential so you have to play them to see who is worth keeping and moving, so I am sure that KH is willing but he is not going to give away players he is unsure of yet until he knows for sure.

*Sometimes deals dont work out -- Weiss was a bad signing because, for whatever reason he cannot stay healthy, cleary played hurt and lost a step -- im confident, if anyone knew all of that would happen, he would not have been signed.

*If you think Babcock may not have manipulated some of these moves your kidding. I am of the school of thought that Babs, for whatever reason, loves guys like Ericsson, Cleary and Glendening... so in order to attempt to keep Babcock, im sure KH felt a certain need to accomdate his requests to a certain level, as any GM might consider with his coach.

*Our real problem is this -- We did not have the fortunates, if you want to call it that of sucking for 10yrs in order to get Crosbys, Toews, Kanes, Malkins, Getzlafs, Perrys, Keith etc. // We have to develop and that takes time.

*We are spoiled -- so that means we expect to win and soon, which is fair, but I doubt KH forgot how to build teams, and to say he sucks in the cap era, when they are the only team to make the playoffs during all of them AND be one of (2) teams only to make back to back Stanley Cup finals is a bit sulkish.

Big trades are sexy, no doubt, but the Wings need to develop depth and Stars at the same time without #1 picks so that poop takes time. Sit back peps and lets see what KH and JB are going to do with a roster that everyone counts out.

Im telling you now, as painful as this may be... in about 2yrs we are either going to be a MONSTER team again or be picking our Toews or Crosby. Well see what happens.

I beg to differ on KH.

His decisiveness has kept us a playoff longer than we should have been.

*The Legwand trade stabilized our center hole just enough to get us into the playoffs. Although "the hook" is getting regular minutes in Nashville, who would you take of the lineup right now to replace put him in? Honestly... at the time, he had as much promise as maybe Jurco, but in all honesty the best sure bet KH had at the time was ensuring Legwand would give us enough to get into the playoffs... and he did.

*As far as trades go, you cannot be too hypocritical, because in all honesty... if you are complaining about losing youth, trades is the biggest way to lose them ^^^ as per above. You cannot have it both ways... complain about the youth that has been lost but yet complain he doesnt make trades. NO ONE will trade for Miller, Cleary or any old vet... so make up your mind, lose youth in a trade or not trade youth.

*The challenge you see right now, is that we have too much youthful potential so you have to play them to see who is worth keeping and moving, so I am sure that KH is willing but he is not going to give away players he is unsure of yet until he knows for sure.

*Sometimes deals dont work out -- Weiss was a bad signing because, for whatever reason he cannot stay healthy, cleary played hurt and lost a step -- im confident, if anyone knew all of that would happen, he would not have been signed.

*If you think Babcock may not have manipulated some of these moves your kidding. I am of the school of thought that Babs, for whatever reason, loves guys like Ericsson, Cleary and Glendening... so in order to attempt to keep Babcock, im sure KH felt a certain need to accomdate his requests to a certain level, as any GM might consider with his coach.

*Our real problem is this -- We did not have the fortunates, if you want to call it that of sucking for 10yrs in order to get Crosbys, Toews, Kanes, Malkins, Getzlafs, Perrys, Keith etc. // We have to develop and that takes time.

*We are spoiled -- so that means we expect to win and soon, which is fair, but I doubt KH forgot how to build teams, and to say he sucks in the cap era, when they are the only team to make the playoffs during all of them AND be one of (2) teams only to make back to back Stanley Cup finals is a bit sulkish.

Big trades are sexy, no doubt, but the Wings need to develop depth and Stars at the same time without #1 picks so that poop takes time. Sit back peps and lets see what KH and JB are going to do with a roster that everyone counts out.

Im telling you now, as painful as this may be... in about 2yrs we are either going to be a MONSTER team again or be picking our Toews or Crosby. Well see what happens.
- BooBoo997

But what's the point of getting knocked out in the 1st round every year?

I beg to differ on KH.

His decisiveness has kept us a playoff longer than we should have been.

*The Legwand trade stabilized our center hole just enough to get us into the playoffs. Although "the hook" is getting regular minutes in Nashville, who would you take of the lineup right now to replace put him in? Honestly... at the time, he had as much promise as maybe Jurco, but in all honesty the best sure bet KH had at the time was ensuring Legwand would give us enough to get into the playoffs... and he did.

*As far as trades go, you cannot be too hypocritical, because in all honesty... if you are complaining about losing youth, trades is the biggest way to lose them ^^^ as per above. You cannot have it both ways... complain about the youth that has been lost but yet complain he doesnt make trades. NO ONE will trade for Miller, Cleary or any old vet... so make up your mind, lose youth in a trade or not trade youth.

*The challenge you see right now, is that we have too much youthful potential so you have to play them to see who is worth keeping and moving, so I am sure that KH is willing but he is not going to give away players he is unsure of yet until he knows for sure.

*Sometimes deals dont work out -- Weiss was a bad signing because, for whatever reason he cannot stay healthy, cleary played hurt and lost a step -- im confident, if anyone knew all of that would happen, he would not have been signed.

*If you think Babcock may not have manipulated some of these moves your kidding. I am of the school of thought that Babs, for whatever reason, loves guys like Ericsson, Cleary and Glendening... so in order to attempt to keep Babcock, im sure KH felt a certain need to accomdate his requests to a certain level, as any GM might consider with his coach.

*Our real problem is this -- We did not have the fortunates, if you want to call it that of sucking for 10yrs in order to get Crosbys, Toews, Kanes, Malkins, Getzlafs, Perrys, Keith etc. // We have to develop and that takes time.

*We are spoiled -- so that means we expect to win and soon, which is fair, but I doubt KH forgot how to build teams, and to say he sucks in the cap era, when they are the only team to make the playoffs during all of them AND be one of (2) teams only to make back to back Stanley Cup finals is a bit sulkish.

Big trades are sexy, no doubt, but the Wings need to develop depth and Stars at the same time without #1 picks so that poop takes time. Sit back peps and lets see what KH and JB are going to do with a roster that everyone counts out.

Im telling you now, as painful as this may be... in about 2yrs we are either going to be a MONSTER team again or be picking our Toews or Crosby. Well see what happens.
- BooBoo997

I agree with most all of this. Especially trading, we all want to keep tatar nyquist mantha, larkin mrazek but we want this HUGE trade? you simply cant have both, and its frustrates me when people complain he doesnt make the trades they want. I do feel he is afraid of making a large trade, but im not terribly unhappy about that, again i sort of just wish i knew what trades he was offered and turned down, to either praise him or complain and truly have a valid opinion without total speculation.

how is franzens contract bad? or Z? yeah franzen is injured and doesnt perform now, but 4 mil cap hit? that contract is great for what we were getting out of franzen, kindl is paid less than what 2.5 mil a year? thats not a horrible contract, he let leino walk away and watch him get paid so much it was ridiculous, hes very good at managing our cap in the cap era, in fact i would say hes one of the very best.

hossa, if he had paid him any more than what we offered we would be handicap for eternity, Holland knows the cap/team limits very well and when too much is simply too much.

Just to clarify, the Wings did not lose Nestrasil because of Cleary. They COULD have sent Jurco down to the AHL, and honestly he probably could have used the time down there, but they chose to keep him in the NHL and put Nestrasil on waivers.

That said, Cleary has obviously got to go.

Just to clarify, the Wings did not lose Nestrasil because of Cleary. They COULD have sent Jurco down to the AHL, and honestly he probably could have used the time down there, but they chose to keep him in the NHL and put Nestrasil on waivers.

That said, Cleary has obviously got to go.
- nova2112

No.

Jurco was in the lineup.

Cleary wasn't.

They COULD have sent Cleary down.

No.

Jurco was in the lineup.

Cleary wasn't.

They COULD have sent Cleary down.
- Feds91Stammer

My point is that Jurco was waiver exempt. So there were options. KH and Babs chose to keep Jurco in the lineup and tried to waive Nestrasil. It's not just as cut and dry as "signing Cleary cost them Nestrasil" like everyone wants it to be. If Nestrasil had earned his spot, he would still be here.

But what's the point of getting knocked out in the 1st round every year?
- Feds91Stammer

I doubt Holland's plan is to build a team to get knocked out in the 1st each year. In fairness, we beat ANA a few a years ago and pushed the Hawks as well. In addition, pushed TB to 7 this year, this is growth process.... If you think the Wings are in cup contender mode, your expectations not Holland is the problem.

I agree with most all of this. Especially trading, we all want to keep tatar nyquist mantha, larkin mrazek but we want this HUGE trade? you simply cant have both, and its frustrates me when people complain he doesnt make the trades they want. I do feel he is afraid of making a large trade, but im not terribly unhappy about that, again i sort of just wish i knew what trades he was offered and turned down, to either praise him or complain and truly have a valid opinion without total speculation.

how is franzens contract bad? or Z? yeah franzen is injured and doesnt perform now, but 4 mil cap hit? that contract is great for what we were getting out of franzen, kindl is paid less than what 2.5 mil a year? thats not a horrible contract, he let leino walk away and watch him get paid so much it was ridiculous, hes very good at managing our cap in the cap era, in fact i would say hes one of the very best.

hossa, if he had paid him any more than what we offered we would be handicap for eternity, Holland knows the cap/team limits very well and when too much is simply too much.
- digitalbath

I don't think I mentioned mule at all, but his cap hit is more than reasonable.... But his style of play has wore on him. I am not sure he will be back, but here is hoping.

My point is that Jurco was waiver exempt. So there were options. KH and Babs chose to keep Jurco in the lineup and tried to waive Nestrasil. It's not just as cut and dry as "signing Cleary cost them Nestrasil" like everyone wants it to be. If Nestrasil had earned his spot, he would still be here.
- nova2112

Did Anyone have high hopes for Nesty? In all reality if he had forced the Wings hand to keep him, he would have been kept. We need to stop talking like every ahler forced the brass to keep guys like Tatar, Nyquist and Sheehan did when they didn't.... We can't keep everyone.

PS - announced today that Poile isn't certain about resigning Jarkrok... So this regular minutes talk may be overstated.