Bill Meltzer: Wrapup: Flyers Crash Late in Tampa, Phantoms Win, Snider Hockey

Bill Meltzer: Wrapup: Flyers Crash Late in Tampa, Phantoms Win, Snider Hockey
- bmeltzer

Bill, your assessment of the game was bang on except that you didn't add that Mason is awful and the loss was all his fault.. haha Sometimes, I wonder what game some people are watching??

I really thought that they were going to be able to bring it home, but what did them in was the 4 straight PKs against IMO. The hold on Giroux was weak. I also thought the call on Ghost could have been an even up as that Richard Callahan took a full out swing at Raffl when they were about to engage. For a team playing the second of back to backs that was a killer. It seemed the refs were piling on and we couldn't overcome it despite mase standing on his head.

That was a tough game to give a way like that. Its not like the penalties weren't penalties... To me the first line struggled again and that's tough to win games when they don't play well.
some positives as I get ready for my annual philly pilgrimage ....Provorov continues to grow as a player and by the mid season mark will probably be the best all around D man on the team. Mason was great, and that analysis doesn't often come from me, but the guy was solid. Konecny continues to play with speed and grit as we reach the 1/4 pole mark. I also love Wayne Simmonds game this year. He just looks faster and more confident. Looking forward to Fridays game!!

oh and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone south of the border....

The Flyers need more out of Giroux's line, especially at 5 on 5. They need Schenn to provide far better play. He's had some production, but he's not really involved physically or doing much else. Could have signed Brandon Pirri for 1/5th of the money and gotten what Schenn has provided thus far.

I'm concerned about that contract being a poor one. Not necessarily a bad one, just a deal where the guy is slightly overpaid and really doesn't provide full value. They also need Couturier to produce when he returns. Couturier does a lot besides produce, so it's not as glaring for him. But if he's going to be the 2C, he needs to produce more. You can have great advanced numbers and generate shots, but they also need to go in more consistently.

Damned loss has me feeling more pessimistic than I have for awhile. The future is still very bright, but after 5-6 seasons in the NHL you want to see more from guys being paid like core pieces. Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, even Voracek need to be better. Simmonds and Konecny are really the only two in top six puling weight right now.

oh and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone south of the border....
- landros 2

and Happy Thursday to you guys.

It's just a coincidence that the goalies final save percentages for the game mirror their season averages.
Just a coincidence

Bill, your assessment of the game was bang on except that you didn't add that Mason is awful and the loss was all his fault.. haha Sometimes, I wonder what game some people are watching??

I really thought that they were going to be able to bring it home, but what did them in was the 4 straight PKs against IMO. The hold on Giroux was weak. I also thought the call on Ghost could have been an even up as that Richard Callahan took a full out swing at Raffl when they were about to engage. For a team playing the second of back to backs that was a killer. It seemed the refs were piling on and we couldn't overcome it despite mase standing on his head.
- Hextall271

Not this, but he needs to be as good as the guy at the other end, it hasn't happened enough this year.
I can't believe I'm thinking this, but when the 2C is back on the ice I think I would test the market and see if I could get a
A True shooter from the wing
B Top defenseman (Hamilton?)

Sometimes we make the other goalie look too great, someone who's a true shooter, snap a hard shot from anywhere.
Maybe Schenn can be a 2C moving forward? Who knows? He has a 60 point season, (59 last year), under his belt, maybe that would be a better option?
I'm just not sure paying Couturier the $ they are paying him makes sense, while lacking in some other areas.
It's just a thought, I don't know. He seems really challenged sometimes in the "O" zone, nothing against him as a player at all.

Notice the way Konekny creates offense?
Simmonds can also create, as Giroux, Voracek, and sometimes Schenn.
I just don't see Couturier create enough offense for the cash he's being paid, I know that's not his forte, but we seem to have a few holes and no other options.

Not this, but he needs to be as good as the guy at the other end, it hasn't happened enough this year.
I can't believe I'm thinking this, but when the 2C is back on the ice I think I would test the market and see if I could get a
A True shooter from the wing
B Top defenseman (Hamilton?)

Sometimes we make the other goalie look too great, someone who's a true shooter, snap a hard shot from anywhere.
Maybe Schenn can be a 2C moving forward? Who knows? He has a 60 point season, (59 last year), under his belt, maybe that would be a better option?
I'm just not sure paying Couturier the $ they are paying him makes sense, while lacking in some other areas.
It's just a thought, I don't know. He seems really challenged sometimes in the "O" zone, nothing against him as a player at all.
- puckhead17

Mason was the better goaltender last night in my opinion. He's given the team a good chance of winning the game for the last 3 games or so, where his play is trending up. The Flyers biggest issues for the season have been goaltending, which seems to be on the right track, and team defensive breakdowns, which unfortunately, don't show any sign of getting on the right track.
Even if Couturier is not scoring at the level we want him to, his is still a very valuable player, and still well worth his cap hit in my opinion.

First off, Happy Thanksgiving to all south of the border and happy Thursday to all those up north!

I've been saying all along that the Flyers badly need another quality center to take the next step in their development. Now with Coots out, it's certainly not going to get any better. In response to JSaq, they could certainly use more from G at ES. However, now that he will be facing tougher matchups and seeing more time on the PK, I doubt it's gonna happen. Schenn needs to pick up his game, I hope they help by leaving in the same position and on the same line for more than a game or 2.

No matter where they finish this season, I'll be happy as long as I see most of the following:

Continued improvement and good play from Provorov and Konecny
Ghost getting back to form and making the needed adjustments to his game
Schenn getting his game back on track
Some vets moved before or at the deadline and kids like Morin and Leier getting a shot with the big club.
Continued development and positive progression among the prospect pool.

Anything more would simply be a bonus

Mason was the better goaltender last night in my opinion. He's given the team a good chance of winning the game for the last 3 games or so, where his play is trending up. The Flyers biggest issues for the season have been goaltending, which seems to be on the right track, and team defensive breakdowns, which unfortunately, don't show any sign of getting on the right track.
- MJL

Wrong. (sorry, my opinion, WHICH I'm entitled to). sorry hockey buzz

Tell me besides the Florida game where he's outplayed the opposition goalie?
He didn't necessarily out play Vasilevskiy last night, they made a few mistakes.
Problem is that guy is listed at 6'1, and he looks 6'8.

First off, Happy Thanksgiving to all south of the border and happy Thursday to all those up north!

I've been saying all along that the Flyers badly need another quality center to take the next step in their development. Now with Coots out, it's certainly not going to get any better. In response to JSaq, they could certainly use more from G at ES. However, now that he will be facing tougher matchups and seeing more time on the PK, I doubt it's gonna happen. Schenn needs to pick up his game, I hope they help by leaving in the same position and on the same line for more than a game or 2.

No matter where they finish this season, I'll be happy as long as I see most of the following:

Continued improvement and good play from Provorov and Konecny
Ghost getting back to form and making the needed adjustments to his game
Schenn getting his game back on track
Some vets moved before or at the deadline and kids like Morin and Leier getting a shot with the big club.
Continued development and positive progression among the prospect pool.

Anything more would simply be a bonus
- BiggE

If we doubt it's going to happen, then that is a huge problem for this team moving forward. When injuries happen and the team is struggling, that's when you expect your top players to lift and carry the team. Every top player in the league sees the toughest match ups and competition.

and Happy Thursday to you guys.
- Jsaquella

haha well played! Hope Y'all get to watch football and eat turducken..

Wrong.

Tell me besides the Florida game where he's outplayed the opposition goalie?
He didn't necessarily out play Vasilevskiy last night, they made a few mistakes.
Problem is that guy is listed at 6'1, and he looks 6'8.
- puckhead17

Mason was the better goaltender last night, and outplayed Vasilevsky, and Mason did everything he could to carry the team to a win.

Mason was the better goaltender last night in my opinion. He's given the team a good chance of winning the game for the last 3 games or so, where his play is trending up. The Flyers biggest issues for the season have been goaltending, which seems to be on the right track, and team defensive breakdowns, which unfortunately, don't show any sign of getting on the right track.
Even if Couturier is not scoring at the level we want him to, his is still a very valuable player, and still well worth his cap hit in my opinion.
- MJL

Exactly. Mason was the better goaltender and has been the last while. To me, it's as simple as saying that he needs lots of work to get in his groove. He wasn't getting that early on, and his play suffered. Now that he's playing a lot, he's been solid.

Mason was the better goaltender last night in my opinion. He's given the team a good chance of winning the game for the last 3 games or so, where his play is trending up. The Flyers biggest issues for the season have been goaltending, which seems to be on the right track, and team defensive breakdowns, which unfortunately, don't show any sign of getting on the right track.
Even if Couturier is not scoring at the level we want him to, his is still a very valuable player, and still well worth his cap hit in my opinion.
- MJL

We can't pay a guy that kind of $ for O zone struggles, and 40 point seasons.

I know offense isn't everything, but when a very mellow Bob Clarke tells you that any guy can play defensively, but he needs to produce more tells you more than your thinking, and saying.

Mason was the better goaltender last night, and outplayed Vasilevsky, and Mason did everything he could to carry the team to a win.
- MJL

Your opinion, not factual as you claim.

If we doubt it's going to happen, then that is a huge problem for this team moving forward. When injuries happen and the team is struggling, that's when you expect your top players to lift and carry the team. Every top player in the league sees the toughest match ups and competition.
- MJL

He's the only quality center on the roster, undersized and has played nearly a decade of very hard minutes. I like G and respect him a lot, but he's just not a franchise #1 center any more. More than ever, the NHL is becoming a young man's league. While G could be an excellent 2C, top pp guy for years to come, the Flyers need to be looking for their next #1 center.

He's the only quality center on the roster, undersized and has played nearly a decade of very hard minutes. I like G and respect him a lot, but he's just not a franchise #1 center any more. More than ever, the NHL is becoming a young man's league. While G could be an excellent 2C, top pp guy for years to come, the Flyers need to be looking for their next #1 center.
- BiggE

Shows the need for a true #2 center who can create, because G is getting shadowed.


Edit:
I'm just thinking cynically that maybe Schenn, (for the $), would be a better 2C moving forward. Your 2C making a good salary should be a solid back checker, (and Schenn is), not a defense first mindset kind of player.

I love Couturier, but honestly wouldn't a goal scoring winger for close to the same $ be a better option?

We can't pay a guy that kind of $ for O zone struggles, and 40 point seasons.

I know offense isn't everything, but when a very mellow Bob Clarke tells you that any guy can play defensively, but he needs to produce more tells you more than your thinking, and saying.
- puckhead17

4M a year is not a lot of money in today's NHL. If the player is putting up 40 points, and playing strong defensively, and on the PK, then not only can we pay him that kind of money, it would unwise not to. I'll be the first to admit that even defensively this season, Couturier's game has been sub par, but he has a proven track record in this league as being a very solid two way center.

Giroux has 4 ES points and is a minus 9.

Since late last year he has disappeared. 8mil+ a season means you produce. If you can't score you sure as hell better backcheck like your life depends on it.

They look terrible.

Mason has been fine of late, last night he wasn't to blame and played far better than his numbers suggest.

In terms of worries, my bigger ones are with Schenn and Couturier. Couturier needs to start turning the really good underlying numbers into points if he's going to be the 2C. He does enough other stuff where his contract isn't bad if he doesn't produce at a 2C level and ends up an elite shutdown guy who scores 10-15 goals and 40-45 points. But they really want him to be that 2C who scores 20-23 goals and gets 50 points.

Schenn on the other hand is invisible. He's getting some production, but he's not doing much else-and the production he's getting isn't really him creating, it's born from usage on the PP and with talented linemates. He really needs to be the guy he was in the 2nd half last season. If he doesn't approach that or is the same inconsistent guy he's been for the past 3-4 years(not just in production but overall play) he's not worth his contract.

They also really need Giroux (and to a lesser extent Voracek) to play better. Production is needed, but Giroux was almost invisible last night. You can't have that from your top player. Need to hear his name a lot, especially if the points aren't coming.

Wrong. (sorry, my opinion, WHICH I'm entitled to). sorry hockey buzz

Tell me besides the Florida game where he's outplayed the opposition goalie?
He didn't necessarily out play Vasilevskiy last night, they made a few mistakes.
Problem is that guy is listed at 6'1, and he looks 6'8.
- puckhead17

I will tell you that he did outplay Vas. Weises's goal was weak, and I liked Provy's goal, but that was stoppable. The ones on Mase were absolute breakdowns. Was it possible to stop them? Of course, but you've got to be realistic as well.

Looking back. Mase played solid vs Winnipeg where they were outshot, and I also think he was solid vs the Wild. As I already mentioned, he's starting to round into form with all the work. Rebound control has been great, and although many think that he sucks because he can't stop everything, what you look for is to stop all the ones that are routine, most of those difficult and some of the extremely difficult ones. He did that last night.

He's the only quality center on the roster, undersized and has played nearly a decade of very hard minutes. I like G and respect him a lot, but he's just not a franchise #1 center any more. More than ever, the NHL is becoming a young man's league. While G could be an excellent 2C, top pp guy for years to come, the Flyers need to be looking for their next #1 center.
- BiggE

I agree, and it certainly looks that way. All I'm saying is that match ups aren't an excuse, and he's either that player or he's not. 8+M is a lot of money to spend on a #2 center. There is no doubt that the Flyers still need to add more skill and speed to the lineup.