Trevor Shackles: Confidence Levels in the Front Office How would you rank the front office?

I don't blame Dorion at all. I think the owner has hamstrung him.

I find it pretty bizarre that the Senators would consistently rank so low in all of these categories. In fact, I would suggest that it shows a certain bias in the results, because for all of the team's failings their drafting record is nowhere near the bottom-5 of the league. In fact, I would argue that their drafting record in the later rounds is among the best in the league.

Over the past 10 years their drafting in the 4th-7th rounds has yielded:
Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Dzingel, Harpur, Wolanin, Jaros, Daccord, Lajoie, Batherson, Crookshank

Check the same for the other teams in the NHL, and you'll rarely find a better crop of players taken in the later rounds.

Great progress, moved up one full increment ahead of Minnesota.

You are either going forward or going backwards. Obviously the Sens are moving forward, they have taken a first big step in climbing the ladder.

Perception is reality!

I don't blame Dorion at all. I think the owner has hamstrung him.
- kaptaan

He set this franchise back at least 5 years. I don't know how you can attract free agents if you are projected to be a lottery team. It will take good drafting to bring this team back into contention. Patience is all that is left.

it is clear that there is absolutely no plan

Trevor nailed it.

This, alone, is reason enough to not trust those running the team. Melickle and Dorion keep giving us more reasons, but that one is really all we need.

"I just cannot put all my faith in a front office that refuses to hire more people and refuses to think outside the box when it comes to drafting, developing, trading, free agency, and using data."

I actually think they're thinking outside the box quite a bit... just some people don't care for the end results. I can't think of another team that's ever traded away so much talent in such a short period of time, accumulated so many draft picks & prospects, or made such an effort to wind up ~25% below the salary cap floor in terms of actual expenses. You can debate the motivations of these moves, but they certainly aren't the norm. Even at the draft, they took $hit from some people for selecting Thomson early and not just blindly taking Brink/Kaliyev at #32... but that's pretty much the definition of making a decision as a team based on your own determination of value, as opposed to just going with the generic prospect list.

"I just cannot put all my faith in a front office that refuses to hire more people and refuses to think outside the box when it comes to drafting, developing, trading, free agency, and using data."

I actually think they're thinking outside the box quite a bit... just some people don't care for the end results. I can't think of another team that's ever traded away so much talent in such a short period of time, accumulated so many draft picks & prospects, or made such an effort to wind up ~25% below the salary cap floor in terms of actual expenses. You can debate the motivations of these moves, but they certainly aren't the norm. Even at the draft, they took $hit from some people for selecting Thomson early and not just blindly taking Brink/Kaliyev at #32... but that's pretty much the definition of making a decision as a team based on your own determination of value, as opposed to just going with the generic prospect list.
- khawk

I can agree with that...

Yourewrongbecause why dont you cheer for another team then? You keep crying since forever about that.If you can't figure that Dorion is handcuffed by melnyk...i dont know what to say

Thinking outside the box when it comes about drafting and developping? Senators selected logan brown who was far from being a safe puck,they selected thomson who was far from a safe pick either AND was a urgent need with our mediocre RHD depth.

I could care less about brink,lavoie or whatever.Their choice with thomson was on par with what they needed to do.Not even mentionning development made with Stone,hoffman,dzingel,hogberg,wolanin,and so on.Most of those ended up being traded but were offered legit contracts.They decided to decline and thats it.

I find it pretty bizarre that the Senators would consistently rank so low in all of these categories. In fact, I would suggest that it shows a certain bias in the results, because for all of the team's failings their drafting record is nowhere near the bottom-5 of the league. In fact, I would argue that their drafting record in the later rounds is among the best in the league.

Over the past 10 years their drafting in the 4th-7th rounds has yielded:
Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Dzingel, Harpur, Wolanin, Jaros, Daccord, Lajoie, Batherson, Crookshank

Check the same for the other teams in the NHL, and you'll rarely find a better crop of players taken in the later rounds.
- khawk

I get what you're saying, but drafting includes the first 3 rounds too

I don't blame Dorion at all. I think the owner has hamstrung him.
- kaptaan

I think you are right. I wouldn't be inclined to give him a chance under good ownership though.

I think you are right. I wouldn't be inclined to give him a chance under good ownership though.
- hemlock34

I agree....Pierre Dorion is a very good scout, he was okay as an AGM...but when he leaves Ottawa there is exactly ZERO chance he gets another GM job in the NHL.

Is ownership to blame for a lot of what he does....no doubt......but he's the one out there making bad trades, not taking advantage of some smart moves that are available, waiting too long to deal players as their value plummets, etc.

I like what he's done so far this summer (I will change my tune if they can't get White to sign a good contract and extend Chabot now), but overall he hasn't done very well at all as GM.

Great progress, moved up one full increment ahead of Minnesota.

You are either going forward or going backwards. Obviously the Sens are moving forward, they have taken a first big step in climbing the ladder.

Perception is reality!
- spatso

Somehow I think this says more about what a poopshow Minnesota became than anything Ottawa did well.

I say every ranking is about on par. Always appreciate seeing a full view of all 31 teams. That is how you measure actual success. Drafting and development is where it should be. Maybe a little lower than most thought but it isn’t all rainbows and butterflies as most Sens fans will lead you to believe. No sense in really bragging about late round picks when early round picks like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Puemple, etc. never really pan out. It essentially evens outs.

I would say management does think outside of the box, but not in a way to make the team succeed right now.

All in all, appropriate ranking. Tons of work to do to get back to respectability.

I actually truly believe deep down Dorion really really really wants to see the Senators win a Stanley Cup. I feel like that man lives and breathes for the Senators. I think under different ownership he could easily get it done if he had the backing financially he needed.

Their drafting record with Dorion in charge looks good.

His trades are here and there. Everytime he makes a bad one though he turns around and makes a great trade to make up for it. The only objectively bad trades I can see were the Zibanejad Trade (which could still end up good in the long run is Gustavsson pans out as a top 20 NHL Starter and still plays for the Sens when it happens) and the Hoffman trade as he should have simply taken the deal Florida offered if he was committed to rebuilding at that time. I don't consider the Duchene trade that much of a failure as Duchene played the best he ever had in his career in Ottawa and nobody could have foreseen a bottom 4 finish with that roster in 17-18. The Karlsson trade was likely the best deal he or any GM in his situation was gonna get.

Ottawa is nice and cleanly set for picks and prospects for his goal timeline of competitiveness and we are doubtless going to nab a star player in the next draft for sure. The future of the team looks about as good as it can.
* Cap Space
* Chabot, Brannstrom and Wolannin on D
* Tchachuk for character, grit and leadership
* Potential playmaking, speed and scoring in Batherson, Logan Brown and Formenton.
* No long term contracts to weighing them down in a couple of years
* At least 4 great goalie prospects that at least one should turn into a great starter.
* Almost guaranteed top 4 draft pick in next years deep draft.

I think people underestimate Dorion's ability and vision. If he had more staff, more money to sign players he could be a great GM. I think any GM you think would be better than Dorion at running the Senators likely would never agree to work under the conditions he is forced to work with but Dorion values the Senators as an organization enough to try.

Drafting and development is where it should be. Maybe a little lower than most thought but it isn’t all rainbows and butterflies as most Sens fans will lead you to believe. No sense in really bragging about late round picks when early round picks like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Puemple, etc. never really pan out. It essentially evens outs.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

I'm always surprised at some people's expectations around drafting. You accurately named the 1st round 'duds', but you do realize they also drafted the likes of Karlsson, Chabot, Zibanejad, White, Tkachuk, Brown, Thomson, and Bernard-Docker in recent years, right? Take a look around the league and see how many teams hit consistently on first round picks in the 15-30 range, or pulled great players from consensus weak drafts (which the Cowen, Lazar, and Ceci years definitely were, outside of the top-10). In general, people seem to always feel like other teams are better at drafting, but the Senators are objectively above average by almost any measure.

I'm always surprised at some people's expectations around drafting. You accurately named the 1st round 'duds', but you do realize they also drafted the likes of Karlsson, Chabot, Zibanejad, White, Tkachuk, Brown, Thomson, and Bernard-Docker in recent years, right? Take a look around the league and see how many teams hit consistently on first round picks in the 15-30 range, or pulled great players from consensus weak drafts (which the Cowen, Lazar, and Ceci years definitely were, outside of the top-10). In general, people seem to always feel like other teams are better at drafting, but the Senators are objectively above average by almost any measure.
- khawk

Yes. I do realize there have been some good picks as well. That’s what drafting is. Some duds and some busts. Every team does it. Ottawa is no different.

Your post sort of shows my point. Half that list has yet to make an NHL impact, yet, they are brilliant picks by Ottawa? Certainly, talent to work with but nothing to rant home about, just yet.

This is year one of the rebuild folks. The best prospect should be coming in the next drafts. This idea of a rebuild only became fact last season. This is how you get better. Apologies if my negativity overshadows the possibility to getting some great players down the line. Half of the current and “promising” prospects in this system will likely be replaced by other names in the next few years and not necessarily because they are in the NHL…

Main concern is retaining that talent due to ownership, which can’t be ignored.

Yes. I do realize there have been some good picks as well. That’s what drafting is. Some duds and some busts. Every team does it. Ottawa is no different.
Your post sort of shows my point. Half that list has yet to make an NHL impact, yet, they are brilliant picks by Ottawa? Certainly, talent to work with but nothing to rant home about, just yet.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

If Ottawa has just as many hits/misses as other teams but you concede that they're better than average in the later rounds, then what is the justification for calling them a bottom-5 drafting team in the league? My point isn't that Ottawa is the absolute best drafting team, but they're far better than this article and survey would imply. If you actually look at the list of players each team has drafted in the past 10 years (and account for things like the bias towards top-5 overall picks), I think you'd be hard pressed to rank Ottawa outside of the top-15.

Yourewrongbecause why dont you cheer for another team then? You keep crying since forever about that.If you can't figure that Dorion is handcuffed by melnyk...i dont know what to say
- Laughinghyena666

Shut it, Melnyk bot. Your reading comprehension hasn't improved since you were asked to leave Silver Seven. You're the one who cries everytime you ride in to the defense of your uncle Pierre. You are a piehead.

If Ottawa has just as many hits/misses as other teams but you concede that they're better than average in the later rounds, then what is the justification for calling them a bottom-5 drafting team in the league? My point isn't that Ottawa is the absolute best drafting team, but they're far better than this article and survey would imply. If you actually look at the list of players each team has drafted in the past 10 years (and account for things like the bias towards top-5 overall picks), I think you'd be hard pressed to rank Ottawa outside of the top-15.
- khawk

It's a log jam of teams really. I agree the ranking could be higher, and generally, I don't really disagree with your overall take. However, tt's way easier to look at your own team and have rave reviews about the prospects. Many teams have a very similar draft records and prospect pools. I think it's probably the hardest "category" to rank. None of us have a view of all 31 teams.

End of the day, to me (maybe this is where my draft ranking view comes from), the only prospect set to take over any significant shoes is Chabot for Karlsson. In the current system, I don't see a future Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Alfie, etc or players above that calibre. I just see depth players and Tkachuk who I feel will be a very good player, but may not be a star. Hope I am wrong. I like Bown, Batherson, and Formenton, but just trying to be realistic.

If the prospect pool and drafting was great, the departed guys in their prime would be replaced right away and there would be little wait. But we are entering a rebuild which we are 2, 3, 4 years away from being competitive again. Maybe the rebuild is faster than that and I'll eat my crow.

Shut it, Melnyk bot. Your reading comprehension hasn't improved since you were asked to leave Silver Seven. You're the one who cries everytime you ride in to the defense of your uncle Pierre. You are a piehead.
- You'reWrongBecause...

Hahaha exactly what ive expected from you.Your perpetual closed minded attitude is embarassing.Just admit it...pretty much every problem of Senators come from Melnyk.Then it reflect on every employee.Dorion is far from perfect but he's far from being as bad youre telling he is.


I dont care at all about silver sevens.Most of people there were very fine but the few punks who constantly moan the ones who think otherwise than groupthinking make it miserable.Your poor insults make a 9 years old kid look like a man.

It's a log jam of teams really. I agree the ranking could be higher, and generally, I don't really disagree with your overall take. However, tt's way easier to look at your own team and have rave reviews about the prospects. Many teams have a very similar draft records and prospect pools. I think it's probably the hardest "category" to rank. None of us have a view of all 31 teams.

End of the day, to me (maybe this is where my draft ranking view comes from), the only prospect set to take over any significant shoes is Chabot for Karlsson. In the current system, I don't see a future Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Alfie, etc or players above that calibre. I just see depth players and Tkachuk who I feel will be a very good player, but may not be a star. Hope I am wrong. I like Bown, Batherson, and Formenton, but just trying to be realistic.

If the prospect pool and drafting was great, the departed guys in their prime would be replaced right away and there would be little wait. But we are entering a rebuild which we are 2, 3, 4 years away from being competitive again. Maybe the rebuild is faster than that and I'll eat my crow.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

I think youre too harsh.Hoffman was 24 or 25 years old when he earned regular NHL spot.He got lot of time to develop and dont became much than 55ish point per season unidimentional player.Stone was almost 23 years old and benefited from long development too.He averaged 55ish point per season too.Alfe was 22 years old and averaged 63 points per season.All those numbers are far from elite and too say that there is no one in the current system who could replace that is exagerated quite a lot.

In the likes of brown,batherson,white,tkachuk,norris,abramov,Chlapik there is few i could see getting same points total.Do you really thought that Stone and Alfie would become the players they became when they got drafted?

End of the day, to me (maybe this is where my draft ranking view comes from), the only prospect set to take over any significant shoes is Chabot for Karlsson. In the current system, I don't see a future Stone, Duchene, Hoffman, Alfie, etc or players above that calibre. I just see depth players and Tkachuk who I feel will be a very good player, but may not be a star. Hope I am wrong. I like Brown, Batherson, and Formenton, but just trying to be realistic.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

Well, they didn't draft Duchene, so that's kind of irrelevant... and if you applied this level of scrutiny to Stone/Hoffman when they were 19/20, then you wouldn't have seen a future Stone or Hoffman either. Objectively, Brown/White are easily the best centre prospects they've had in the system since Zibanejad. If you weren't comparing against Karlsson, I think you'd be pretty happy to have all of Chabot, Brannstrom, Thomson, and Bernard-Docker in the system. And personally, I don't see nearly the drop-off between Stone/Hoffman and Tkachuk/Batherson that you do... at least in terms of their potential.

I'd agree that they'll need a couple more serious impact prospects before they'll be into contending form, but they still have 9 picks in the first 2 rounds of the next 2 drafts to try to pick up a couple more of these kinds of blue chip prospects. Pretty much any of Lafreniere, Byfield, or Raymond would add another level to the forward group, so hopefully they pull a bit of draft lottery luck next summer.

I think the draft/development is much better than 26th overall.

Rest of the numbers sounds about right although trading is not thaaat bad. We combined losses (Zibanejad/Hoffman/Duchene trades) with some wins (Anisimov/Brassard trades)