Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Hold Off Rangers, 3-2

Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Hold Off Rangers, 3-2
- bmeltzer

thanks billy

Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Hold Off Rangers, 3-2
- bmeltzer

Just when everyone is counting JvR out. Even with his droughts, leads the team in goals and points.

trade value or Expansion draft, but again they have to have a plan to replace him

I still want to tear this team down more and rebuild.

Just when everyone is counting JvR out. Even with his droughts, leads the team in goals and points.
- SuperSchennBros

His goal consistency is what gives him value to other teams. His per year cap hit is too high. JVR with $2mil retained should be pretty attractive to teams that need scoring.

I think JVR has put in a lot of work this season to become a better all around player. He is one of the few players that I am not disappointed in this year.

I thought after a rough start the Flyers really were the better team this game, and got stronger as the game went along, so good for them. I'm sure it helps that the Flyers had 3 days off and even got some practice time. Of course my fear is the Flyers will go on a 10 game winning streak now, when it doesn't matter at all, and kill their draft positioning. Still would have liked to see Morin in the game. I really liked Farabee's game game, and Allison is continuing to look strong.

One thing that has hurt the Flyers this year is their failure to win key faceoffs in the game, so I looked it up and noticed that Couts is down by almost 5% this year compared to last year. The gold standard is Patrice Bergeron, who this year is winning faceoffs at a 62% clip, Couts is 55% which is still good, but not as good as he was last year at about 60%. Giroux on the other hand is close to 60% FO wins and he has been steady at this number for the past few years. A little thing maybe, but when you are up 3-1 with about 2 minutes left in the game and you are faced with a key defensive zone draw and you lose it, and then almost immediately give up a goal to make the game a lot tighter than it should be, it means a lot.

Here we are... again... playing the role of spoiler. Regardless of who needs to go, who needs to be brought in, who’s fault it is, we fans have been denied consistent good hockey for a long long time. It’s frustrating, tedious and so boring to once again be looking a Button’s rankings to try to figure out the next player drafted, you know, the guy who may get called up from the Phantoms in 2-4 years. I’d rather be watching good hockey and looking forward to a potential deep playoff run. But like so many years before, we are not. If anything for this off-season, all I wish for is a direction, a plan, and some movement to an identity.

Be pretty excited if I were a ranger fan. Lot of nice young talent that’s getting better

Rangers & Sens fans have a lot to look forward to.

Be pretty excited if I were a ranger fan. Lot of nice young talent that’s getting better
- Just5

The way it often goes is that most -- not all, of course -- of vaunted young talent improves to varying degrees. Many will ultimately frustrate with inconsistency or get repeatedly set back by injuries. Some will become solidly above average. Few will become superstars. And even if 1-2 do, unless the right pieces are around them, the team still won't win the big prize. Happens more often than not. There's a not insignificant amount of good luck that's needed on top of good design. A team can build a good nucleus but then what does it do to fill the holes that are still there? The success on that front will be what determines how far the team ultimately goes.

Just as Patrik Laine hasn't become the next Teemu Selänne -- he still could, but there seems to be something lacking -- there is no guarantee that Lafreniere or Kakko will ever have HOFer type of impacts. They might, they might not.

Be pretty excited if I were a ranger fan. Lot of nice young talent that’s getting better
- Just5

I remember a few years back all the pundits were touting the Flyers young defensemen and the embarrassment of riches that they have at that position. How has that worked out? Point being that you just never know how young players are going to work out based on a small sample size.

The way it often goes is that most -- not all, of course -- of vaunted young talent improves to varying degrees. Many will ultimately frustrate with inconsistency or get repeatedly set back by injuries. Some will become solidly above average. Few will become superstars. And even if 1-2 do, unless the right pieces are around them, the team still won't win the big prize. Happens more often than not. There's a not insignificant amount of good luck that's needed on top of good design. A team can build a good nucleus but then what does it do to fill the holes that are still there? The success on that front will be what determines how far the team ultimately goes.

Just as Patrik Laine hasn't become the next Teemu Selänne -- he still could, but there seems to be something lacking -- there is no guarantee that Lafreniere or Kakko will ever have HOFer type of impacts. They might, they might not.
- bmeltzer

Huge difference between the rangers and the flyers, talking about filling holes. The rangers big guns are in their prime (zibenajad and panarin), the young guys are filling the holes and they also have the Kreider/buchnevich/strome type guys. We are in a situation where the big guns are on the downside of their career, we actually need the young guys to step up right now or we will have a season like this one.

Rangers young talent is far superior to the Flyers. More importantly it is progressing, not regressing. About the only difference in draft position is LAF -- other than that they had a #2 like us (who would you rather have) and have drafted mid to late first round. The difference is they play their young talent (and not just 5 min a game on the 4th line). They also stick with them, i.e. if they do not score a hat trick in their first game they still play the next.....

The way it often goes is that most -- not all, of course -- of vaunted young talent improves to varying degrees. Many will ultimately frustrate with inconsistency or get repeatedly set back by injuries. Some will become solidly above average. Few will become superstars. And even if 1-2 do, unless the right pieces are around them, the team still won't win the big prize. Happens more often than not. There's a not insignificant amount of good luck that's needed on top of good design. A team can build a good nucleus but then what does it do to fill the holes that are still there? The success on that front will be what determines how far the team ultimately goes.

Just as Patrik Laine hasn't become the next Teemu Selänne -- he still could, but there seems to be something lacking -- there is no guarantee that Lafreniere or Kakko will ever have HOFer type of impacts. They might, they might not.
- bmeltzer

Politely throwing shade, Bill??
Just kidding! Nice write up for a frustrating game.
After the first I thought, "Well, if we can just keep JVR's face off the scoreboard we should be ok!"
Never hard for the Flyers to get up for a game in NY, I see.
Chances are both clubs are done, so I hope to see an exciting, competitive game tonight. With lots of ice time for the kids!
You'll probably face Georgiev in net tonight, so you have that going for you...

Good luck!

Myers has turned into a huge question mark, certain plays he makes are highly questionable.

Rangers young talent is far superior to the Flyers. More importantly it is progressing, not regressing. About the only difference in draft position is LAF -- other than that they had a #2 like us (who would you rather have) and have drafted mid to late first round. The difference is they play their young talent (and not just 5 min a game on the 4th line). They also stick with them, i.e. if they do not score a hat trick in their first game they still play the next.....
- mr4tno

I totally get your point. But, with the way NYR have constructed this roster, Quinn has little choice! With 9 players on ELC's, there will almost always be a kid on the ice.

The way it often goes is that most -- not all, of course -- of vaunted young talent improves to varying degrees. Many will ultimately frustrate with inconsistency or get repeatedly set back by injuries. Some will become solidly above average. Few will become superstars. And even if 1-2 do, unless the right pieces are around them, the team still won't win the big prize. Happens more often than not. There's a not insignificant amount of good luck that's needed on top of good design. A team can build a good nucleus but then what does it do to fill the holes that are still there? The success on that front will be what determines how far the team ultimately goes.

Just as Patrik Laine hasn't become the next Teemu Selänne -- he still could, but there seems to be something lacking -- there is no guarantee that Lafreniere or Kakko will ever have HOFer type of impacts. They might, they might not.
- bmeltzer

Just the fact that we’re stuck with Hayes the next 5 years and not them makes them a winner. Forget everything else

Panarin is an mvp capable talent in his prime. Aside from the young guys

Just the fact that we’re stuck with Hayes the next 5 years and not them makes them a winner. Forget everything else
- Just5

You have no idea how many times someone on our board has female doged about not keeping Hayes! Always liked him, despite his lazy days. But, the contract he was going to get was not going to help us. So, I'm glad he got it elsewhere.

Huge difference between the rangers and the flyers, talking about filling holes. The rangers big guns are in their prime (zibenajad and panarin), the young guys are filling the holes and they also have the Kreider/buchnevich/strome type guys. We are in a situation where the big guns are on the downside of their career, we actually need the young guys to step up right now or we will have a season like this one.
- ClaudeFather

Not even referring to the Flyers. Just speaking in general about how the long-term reality of "just wait til all these talented young kids mature" often ends up playing out. The Rangers' forward group is formidable, as you note. The blueline? We'll see.

Fox is the real deal and looks like he'll be a star for many years. K'Andre Miller? Maybe he approaches his (very high) ceiling. Maybe he doesn't. Jacob Trouba is certainly a solid two-way D man and is in his prime. But is he truly an $8M a year, NMC, 7-year contract worthy defensemen? How much impact in the NHL will Zac Jones ultimately make?

Will Shesterkin approach the heights of Henrik Lundqvist? The talent is there but he's still pretty young.

The Rangers have a whole lot of potential. But I've seen this script in a lot of franchises over the years. There are still more steps to be taken for them to vault to being a Cup contender, and those steps get harder and harder to make (especially in a flat cap period) as players get in line for raises and tough decisions have to be made.

Over here, the Flyers used their first pick of the draft four times in seven drafts -- plus three second-round picks -- on defensemen. That's fine but none have become Fox-level players (and he was a third-round pick by Calgary, whose rights were traded twice). Provorov has come the closest. That would OK, too, if Nolan Patrick in particular had been making the hoped-for impact by this point or if Morgan Frost hadn't been lost for the season and had taken a year-two jump in consistency along similar lines to Farabee.

The way it often goes is that most -- not all, of course -- of vaunted young talent improves to varying degrees. Many will ultimately frustrate with inconsistency or get repeatedly set back by injuries. Some will become solidly above average. Few will become superstars. And even if 1-2 do, unless the right pieces are around them, the team still won't win the big prize. Happens more often than not. There's a not insignificant amount of good luck that's needed on top of good design. A team can build a good nucleus but then what does it do to fill the holes that are still there? The success on that front will be what determines how far the team ultimately goes.

Just as Patrik Laine hasn't become the next Teemu Selänne -- he still could, but there seems to be something lacking -- there is no guarantee that Lafreniere or Kakko will ever have HOFer type of impacts. They might, they might not.
- bmeltzer

Now do the Flyers young players? Right now the Rangers have something important the Flyers don’t; a legitimate young first pair right handed defenseman in Adam Fox. He is looking more like #1 defenseman than Provorov these days.

Edit: Just saw you reply about Fox.

Not even referring to the Flyers. Just speaking in general about how the long-term reality of "just wait til all these talented young kids mature" often ends up playing out. The Rangers' forward group is formidable, as you note. The blueline? We'll see.

Fox is the real deal and looks like he'll be a star for many years. K'Andre Miller? Maybe he approaches his (very high) ceiling. Maybe he doesn't. Jacob Trouba is certainly a solid two-way D man and is in his prime. But is he truly an $8M a year, NMC, 7-year contract worthy defensemen? How much impact in the NHL will Zac Jones ultimately make?

Will Shesterkin approach the heights of Henrik Lundqvist? The talent is there but he's still pretty young.

The Rangers have a whole lot of potential. But I've seen this script in a lot of franchises over the years. There are still more steps to be taken for them to vault to being a Cup contender, and those steps get harder and harder to make (especially in a flat cap period) as players get in line for raises and tough decisions have to be made.

Over here, the Flyers used their first pick of the draft four times in seven drafts -- plus three second-round picks -- on defensemen. That's fine but none have become Fox-level players (and he was a third-round pick by Calgary, whose rights were traded twice). Provorov has come the closest. That would OK, too, if Nolan Patrick in particular had been making the hoped-for impact by this point or if Morgan Frost hadn't been lost for the season and had taken a year-two jump in consistency along similar lines to Farabee.
- bmeltzer

I think a lot of folks see other teams young players and just automatically assume they are better than what the Flyers have. I think both teams have good young players but the mix is not right on either team. Neither team is very good at stopping other teams from scoring. The Flyers have severely regressed in that regard this year.

Both are bubble playoff teams right now. The Rangers have made the flashier moves but they are still depending on the young players panning out just like the Flyers.

You have no idea how many times someone on our board has female doged about not keeping Hayes! Always liked him, despite his lazy days. But, the contract he was going to get was not going to help us. So, I'm glad he got it elsewhere.
- Tonybere

Interesting to hear a Ranger fan's opinion on Hayes. If it were ONLY lazy days....it's been lazy months. Hayes has been just one of the many disappointments on this team. Nobody likes his contract, but you could argue he earned it last year. This year is a disaster.

Not even referring to the Flyers. Just speaking in general about how the long-term reality of "just wait til all these talented young kids mature" often ends up playing out. The Rangers' forward group is formidable, as you note. The blueline? We'll see.

Fox is the real deal and looks like he'll be a star for many years. K'Andre Miller? Maybe he approaches his (very high) ceiling. Maybe he doesn't. Jacob Trouba is certainly a solid two-way D man and is in his prime. But is he truly an $8M a year, NMC, 7-year contract worthy defensemen? How much impact in the NHL will Zac Jones ultimately make?

Will Shesterkin approach the heights of Henrik Lundqvist? The talent is there but he's still pretty young.

The Rangers have a whole lot of potential. But I've seen this script in a lot of franchises over the years. There are still more steps to be taken for them to vault to being a Cup contender, and those steps get harder and harder to make (especially in a flat cap period) as players get in line for raises and tough decisions have to be made.

Over here, the Flyers used their first pick of the draft four times in seven drafts -- plus three second-round picks -- on defensemen. That's fine but none have become Fox-level players (and he was a third-round pick by Calgary, whose rights were traded twice). Provorov has come the closest. That would OK, too, if Nolan Patrick in particular had been making the hoped-for impact by this point or if Morgan Frost hadn't been lost for the season and had taken a year-two jump in consistency along similar lines to Farabee.
- bmeltzer

Both teams still do have plenty of question marks, but my biggest thing is where their best players are right now. Obviously the kids can take a step back, as seen here. I think a lot for us rides in Morgan Frost , unfortunate injury this year, but none of these young kids really have that It factor. Farabee has had a nice season but he is still pushed around too often, he’s got a small frame, he’s a nice complementary piece but he’s never going to be the guy.

Not even referring to the Flyers. Just speaking in general about how the long-term reality of "just wait til all these talented young kids mature" often ends up playing out. The Rangers' forward group is formidable, as you note. The blueline? We'll see.

Fox is the real deal and looks like he'll be a star for many years. K'Andre Miller? Maybe he approaches his (very high) ceiling. Maybe he doesn't. Jacob Trouba is certainly a solid two-way D man and is in his prime. But is he truly an $8M a year, NMC, 7-year contract worthy defensemen? How much impact in the NHL will Zac Jones ultimately make?

Will Shesterkin approach the heights of Henrik Lundqvist? The talent is there but he's still pretty young.

The Rangers have a whole lot of potential. But I've seen this script in a lot of franchises over the years. There are still more steps to be taken for them to vault to being a Cup contender, and those steps get harder and harder to make (especially in a flat cap period) as players get in line for raises and tough decisions have to be made.

Over here, the Flyers used their first pick of the draft four times in seven drafts -- plus three second-round picks -- on defensemen. That's fine but none have become Fox-level players (and he was a third-round pick by Calgary, whose rights were traded twice). Provorov has come the closest. That would OK, too, if Nolan Patrick in particular had been making the hoped-for impact by this point or if Morgan Frost hadn't been lost for the season and had taken a year-two jump in consistency along similar lines to Farabee.
- bmeltzer

I'm certainly not going to say you're wrong, Bill. You are simply saying nothing is guaranteed and that is 100% correct.
That being said, I LOVE where we are right now! We are not Cup contenders, as we have shown against the stronger clubs (except Wash. we've done well with them). But this is about 92% of the roster of the future and they are going to play and grow together for a long time.
Trouba is most certainly overpaid. But on the positive side of it, he provides stability and toughness and leadership like no one else on the team. Not to mention munching minutes. I am not a fan of buyouts, but I think he'll be a candidate in a couple years.
Inflammatory statement warning: What does the Fox say? Norris. Maybe not this year, since we're not making the playoffs, but multiple times before he retires.
Lindgren has been a wonderful surprise. He is Dan Girardi 2.0 in his toughness, but a better skater. K'Andre has been amazing. And he has only been a defenseman for 6 years!! His ceiling is really high, so if he falls short it might still be ok. And apart from Jones we have 3 more D prospects that are projected to be top 4 players.
They just have to keep the right guys and move the others to keep the pond stocked.

...and, learn how to win games.