Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
Jul 21 @ 10:30 AM ET
Just 'cos it got reblogged, I'll post here.
I don't think you can give examples of how exactly these guys were meddled with. I'm not buying it.
Nobody "meddled" with Quinn. Nobody meddled with Burke - he (frank)ed it up himself. And Dubas and Shanahan (frank)ed it up themselves. Royally. And *nobody* has ever won with the approach Dubas tried. - fifty__missions
We don't know what degree of autonomy Quinn had. He reported to Dryden, so there were likely some things he wanted to do that he wasn't allowed to do.
A massive difference between Quinn's generation and Dubas' generation is that Quinn's generation did their job and shut the (frank) up about it. Dubas' generation absolutely does not shut the (frank) up about things. They use PR leaks and press relationships to further their personal agenda.
But because of what you're referring to Burke negotiated autonomy into his contract - he was hired as the president and GM, so he was both Shanahan and Dubas rolled into one and I think a lot of us would argue that he wasn't particularly good at either role.
At the end of the day Dubas screwed himself - had he managed to negotiate with the numbers that had been rumoured all along (Matthews @ $10x8, Marner @ $8x8, Nylander @ $7x6 - and I can't cite sources, that's just the numbers & term I have kicking around in my head that I recall as heavily rumoured well before any negotiations started leaking to the press and before JT was signed), there would have been an additional $5m on the table.
Signing JT at $11m and dumping Kadri for softer less defensively capable players wasn't exactly a great choice - but I do point out that the escrow reclamation and COVID issues really kicked this team in the nuts at a time when they were trying to move - the cap had increased @ 5.7% the year they signed Tavares and then since then has increased 2.5%, 0%, 0%, 1.2%, 1.2% and 5.1% this year. Had the cap growth continued as anticipated there would have been roughly $5m more available each year (the cap would be $106.6m).
In theory they could have been contenders for Pietrangelo's services as an example. I checked, because I was curious - if they had made the internal decision that Kadri had to go, the only other 2nd line Centre of note signed as a UFA in 2018 was Paul Stastny for $6.5m x 3 and he was a significant downgrade in all areas.
I think the biggest mistake - and there were obviously a number - that the Dubas team made was believing the NHL's public position that they were cracking down on obstruction and interference. Dozzer made a good comment yesterday that other teams were still drafting and signing big players who took away guy's skill and the Leafs just kept drafting and signing skill. That was a massive failure to read the room.
We don't know what degree of autonomy Quinn had. He reported to Dryden, so there were likely some things he wanted to do that he wasn't allowed to do.
A massive difference between Quinn's generation and Dubas' generation is that Quinn's generation did their job and shut the (frank) up about it. Dubas' generation absolutely does not shut the (frank) up about things. They use PR leaks and press relationships to further their personal agenda.
But because of what you're referring to Burke negotiated autonomy into his contract - he was hired as the president and GM, so he was both Shanahan and Dubas rolled into one and I think a lot of us would argue that he wasn't particularly good at either role.
At the end of the day Dubas screwed himself - had he managed to negotiate with the numbers that had been rumoured all along (Matthews @ $10x8, Marner @ $8x8, Nylander @ $7x6 - and I can't cite sources, that's just the numbers & term I have kicking around in my head that I recall as heavily rumoured well before any negotiations started leaking to the press and before JT was signed), there would have been an additional $5m on the table.
Signing JT at $11m and dumping Kadri for softer less defensively capable players wasn't exactly a great choice - but I do point out that the escrow reclamation and COVID issues really kicked this team in the nuts at a time when they were trying to move - the cap had increased @ 5.7% the year they signed Tavares and then since then has increased 2.5%, 0%, 0%, 1.2%, 1.2% and 5.1% this year. Had the cap growth continued as anticipated there would have been roughly $5m more available each year (the cap would be $106.6m).
In theory they could have been contenders for Pietrangelo's services as an example. I checked, because I was curious - if they had made the internal decision that Kadri had to go, the only other 2nd line Centre of note signed as a UFA in 2018 was Paul Stastny for $6.5m x 3 and he was a significant downgrade in all areas.
I think the biggest mistake - and there were obviously a number - that the Dubas team made was believing the NHL's public position that they were cracking down on obstruction and interference. Dozzer made a good comment yesterday that other teams were still drafting and signing big players who took away guy's skill and the Leafs just kept drafting and signing skill. That was a massive failure to read the room. - Monkeypunk
Ya, I think the 'meddling' narrative is bullpoop. Burke himself said MLSE is run no different now then when he was here ...and generally the same as most organizations. Ownerships/Boards turn the day to day over to hockey-ops and only get involved if it's something big.
I think Shanny's hockey-ops differs slightly from some other organizations in that he likes a "team" approach where everyone (scouts, GM, Assistant GM's) gets to speak up and offer some insight. They played that up in the Amazon series. So rather than one dictator you have a team but ultimately you have one guy (Dubas or Tree) driving the ship in their direction.
This team is/was littered with Dubas signings and hires ...he's the first to admit it was his team. The rumoured deals that were 'nixed' were the Knies for MAF or the Karlsson deals ..but both could have been bullpoop too.
Either way ...I agree with Dubas - his major (frank) up was not being more proactive and locking up the big 3 (or alternatively drawing a line in the sand and moving one if the $$ was not right). JT was a must-sign at the time ..a little more foresight (and luck) and he'd have locked the other's up first.
Marner wouldn't have been 8x8 and I doubt 34 was ever on board with $10x8. Marner wanted (and won) the battle to get his $5M in bonus money paid ...and I remember reading from Dreger that his bridge number was about $8M x 3 years. i have to think his 8 yr number was always 9+.
But I agree with Fifty ....ultimately the mistake and the issues with the flat cap (no money to spend on the blue line and goaltending) could have been fixed by Dubas with a trade. The Leafs had leverage with the Core until summer of 23'. He chose not to do it in 21' and 22' after bad playoff losses.
The Cap is climbing and these guys are still in their prime so maybe it'll be a mistake that works out.
Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
Jul 21 @ 12:42 PM ET
Ya, I think the 'meddling' narrative is bullpoop. Burke himself said MLSE is run no different now then when he was here ...and generally the same as most organizations. Ownerships/Boards turn the day to day over to hockey-ops and only get involved if it's something big.
I think Shanny's hockey-ops differs slightly from some other organizations in that he likes a "team" approach where everyone (scouts, GM, Assistant GM's) gets to speak up and offer some insight. They played that up in the Amazon series. So rather than one dictator you have a team but ultimately you have one guy (Dubas or Tree) driving the ship in their direction.
This team is/was littered with Dubas signings and hires ...he's the first to admit it was his team. The rumoured deals that were 'nixed' were the Knies for MAF or the Karlsson deals ..but both could have been bullpoop too.
Either way ...I agree with Dubas - his major (frank) up was not being more proactive and locking up the big 3 (or alternatively drawing a line in the sand and moving one if the $$ was not right). JT was a must-sign at the time ..a little more foresight (and luck) and he'd have locked the other's up first.
Marner wouldn't have been 8x8 and I doubt 34 was ever on board with $10x8. Marner wanted (and won) the battle to get his $5M in bonus money paid ...and I remember reading from Dreger that his bridge number was about $8M x 3 years. i have to think his 8 yr number was always 9+.
But I agree with Fifty ....ultimately the mistake and the issues with the flat cap (no money to spend on the blue line and goaltending) could have been fixed by Dubas with a trade. The Leafs had leverage with the Core until summer of 23'. He chose not to do it in 21' and 22' after bad playoff losses.
The Cap is climbing and these guys are still in their prime so maybe it'll be a mistake that works out. - The Law
Meh. My recollection on the Matthews & Marner thing were that there had been preliminary extension conversations prior to signing JT. I have absolutely no confidence in the Matthews numbers because it was less reported and rumoured, but Marner was supposedly willing to sign the 8 x $8m - it was signing JT at $11m that changed his mind and he decided to wait until after the season. The $8m x 3 that Dreger reported was the bridge price _after_ the season had been played.
Regardless. It's all rumour, conjecture - and really I can't recall who the sources were and there's a small handful that I actually believe.
The lack of balance on the blueline was a huge failing. Relying on Rielly to be your #1 is a real weakness. Florida relied on Ekblad (and Forsling - who was so underrated) and before them you had teams led by Pietrangelo, Makar, Hedman (x2), Pietrangelo, Orlov, Letang (x2), Kieth, Doughty, Kieth, Doughty . . .
I don't think too much of Orlov, but he's big and mean and makes life ridiculously unpleasant around the net.
I would go so far as to say that if Dubas had built up the blueline, he already had a goalie in hand who could get it done - but your confidence gets pretty crappy behind a porous defense.
Location: I'm sick of your "I play real , NC Joined: 07.11.2006
Jul 21 @ 2:27 PM ET
i’m reading our best analists here trying to figure out how our laffs haven’t won a cup in spite our post jfj jr gms making the most common sense decisions that should’ve led to a cup but they HAD to hang onto greedy willi, pencil neck female dog and really (?)👍
that’s the constant👍🏿
the ONLY variable that remains is the acquisition of poone (frank)ing jenner which would lead to a Stanley cup victory the moment it happened👊
i’ve been very consistent on this position👍🏿
i would love for a multi millionaire gm lawyer to prove me wrong🤔
Takeaways: So O'Reilly did lobby Trotz to go after Marner and there's at least one guy who is a known competitor that respects and appreciates what Marner brings.
Would be my picks for a PTO
P.E. and Watson I would just sign right now.
But will be good to see how they fit with this group - Tom Dusome
I'd probably invite Alex Nylander if he remains unsigned. I think Wedgie made the point that the team should check with Willy first. There's enough sibling dynamics in the world that are very poor that you wouldn't want to encroach on that. I know he's another defensively poor, soft winger - so he'd have to really impress to earn a spot - but there's no harm in kicking at the can.
I wouldn't bother with Subban or Daws - The Leafs are Woll, Stolarz, Murray, Hildeby, Akhtyamov and Peksa deep right now. There's just no more room in the goaltending stable no matter how well they perform in camp - and really Daws just sucks and Malcom's best days were several years ago.
I don't want to crap on a guy like Watson, with his history and struggles, but he has entered the Player Assistance program 3 times and been suspended for violation of his terms already. He should be forced to wear a red flag as a jersey.
With Bellemare, I have to admit this is a player who steps up in the playoffs and really increases his physicality, but in general he pretty much sucks.
How about skipping the "try-out" and take the bargain bin players like Sprong.
Skates very well, averaged 20 goals the last 2 years and can play LW.
What a terrible miss. Canucks got a steal. Even if he sucks, it's 975K. Rather have a guy who could potentially play in the top-six than Reaves in the press box.
Cousins and Blais are bleh. Clutterbuck is better than both.
Klingberg, definitely not worth the look with OEL already signed. Would much prefer to sign Shattenkirk and Bortuzzo as a 6/7 platoon. Play them 41 games each, situationally, depending on the opponent. Trade Timmins to Pittsburgh to clear the space.
Alex Nylander makes as much sense as the Dallas Stars getting Nick Robertson. You already have the better brother, why waste the roster spot on a guy who isn't good enough to score in the top-six and useless in the bottom-six. Don't see the point.
Takeaways: So O'Reilly did lobby Trotz to go after Marner and there's at least one guy who is a known competitor that respects and appreciates what Marner brings. - Monkeypunk
