Paul Stewart: Emery and the Aggressor Rule

Replace the words Emery and Holtby with Bertuzzi and Moore; and this explains why there was no suspension or hearing for the latter's incident. Oh... wait...

(Not saying Emery's actions are nearly as severe, just saying the exact same by the book explanation for no suspension seems equally applicable.)

Replace the words Emery and Holtby with Bertuzzi and Moore; and this explains why there was no suspension or hearing for the latter's incident. Oh... wait...

(Not saying Emery's actions are nearly as severe, just saying the exact same by the book explanation for no suspension seems equally applicable.)
- Antilles

Bertuzzi was a match penalty situation, not the rule here.

Bertuzzi was a match penalty situation, not the rule here.
- bmeltzer

Ah, ok. But why exactly is repeatedly punching someone who did not want to fight in the back of the head not a match penalty under intent to injure?

Additionally, isn't there something in the rules about the Commissioner being able to do what's best for the sport? Obviously this is opinion, but it seems like this is exact sort of thing that gives the NHL a negative image the Commissioner is supposed to have discretionary powers to deal with.

WHats the difference between a match penalty and a game misconduct?

WHats the difference between a match penalty and a game misconduct?
- ViolentEd1

A match penalty carries an automatic review by the league. Also it often involves more serious situations - such as deliberate intent to injure.

Ah, ok. But why exactly is repeatedly punching someone who did not want to fight in the back of the head not a match penalty under intent to injure?

Additionally, isn't there something in the rules about the Commissioner being able to do what's best for the sport? Obviously this is opinion, but it seems like this is exact sort of thing that gives the NHL a negative image the Commissioner is supposed to have discretionary powers to deal with.
- Antilles

Intent to injure and match penalty would have been more along lines of Emery yanking Holtby by hair and bulldogging him to the ice. What happened last night was being the aggressor and instigator under rule citied.

A match penalty carries an automatic review by the league. Also it often involves more serious situations - such as deliberate intent to injure.
- bmeltzer

Would there have been anything Holtby could have done differently that would have made it easy to call a match penalty on Emery? It just seems like the smartest thing to do in Holtby's case, which is defend himself the best he can, gives the referees a good reason to call a less severe penalty on Emery. I'm not even sure Holtby standing there and not defending himself would have gotten a match penalty called.

Maybe a quote I saw today sums it up best, "If you're going to have fighting in hockey, this is what you get."

Would there have been anything Holtby could have done differently that would have made it easy to call a match penalty on Emery? It just seems like the smartest thing to do in Holtby's case, which is defend himself the best he can, gives the referees a good reason to call a less severe penalty on Emery. I'm not even sure Holtby standing there and not defending himself would have gotten a match penalty called.

Maybe a quote I saw today sums it up best, "If you're going to have fighting in hockey, this is what you get."
- Chinaski

I suppose he could have just stood there, not dropped his stick and blocker, etc and not tried to protect himself at all. He chose a more prudent alternative.

I suppose he could have just stood there, not dropped his stick and blocker, etc and not tried to protect himself at all. He chose a more prudent alternative.
- bmeltzer

Agreed. I guess the only other thing I could think he might be better off doing is trying to keep skating away with mask on and stick in hand and if Emery catches him, fall to the ice and cover his head.

Intent to injure and match penalty would have been more along lines of Emery yanking Holtby by hair and bulldogging him to the ice. What happened last night was being the aggressor and instigator under rule citied.
- bmeltzer

Grabbing him and dragging him down to the ice is exactly what Emery did. Emery didn't yank his hair because when Emery grabbed him, his helmet was still on.

I suppose he could have just stood there, not dropped his stick and blocker, etc and not tried to protect himself at all. He chose a more prudent alternative.
- bmeltzer

I feel like you need to re-watch the replay. That is exactly what Holtby did. He stood there. He didn't drop his stick, or his blocker, or his glove; he didn't take off his mask. All of that came off AFTER Emery lunged at him and dragged him down to the ice, as a result of Emery attacking him. He never decided to drop any equipment, it was knocked off of him as he attempted to avoid getting injured. That's why some stuff, like his blocker, was on the entire time.

And that is what is killing the NHL in the minds of casual or non-hockey fans. I don't have a problem with 2 guys having a go if something happens between them. I don't have a problem with the other fights that broke out last night between skaters. But what exactly did Holtby do? He should get beat up by the back up goalie because he stopped all the shots the Flyers took at him?

Imagine if a MLB pitcher gets lit up. Does he then go into the other teams dugout and beat up the opposing pitcher? When MJ dropped 40+ points on someone, did the guy that was guarding him try to beat him up?

As Ek states in his current blog, the NHLPA is screwing up the game with stunts like this. Players don't respect each other.

Perhaps if the Flyers skated a little harder, played better defense, and stopped a few more pucks, they wouldn't be the door mats they are today.

Perhaps if the Flyers skated a little harder, played better defense, and stopped a few more pucks, they wouldn't be the door mats they are today.
- scottak

Last night's fiasco aside, the Flyers' primary problem this season has been inability to score. Team defense has been a bit better this season, goaltending considerably better.

Including tonight's game, the Flyers have led, been tied or trailed by only one entering third period in every game except last night -- not exactly "doormats." They've been in every game but one with a chance to come away with one or two points, but can't finish them out.

Even last night, the Flyers held the Caps without a single shot for the first 15 minutes of the first period. Everything was going fine. Then there was a failed clear, Caps scored on their second shot of the game and the wheels completely fell off thereafter for the Flyers.

good for emery, holtby is wuss

good for emery, holtby is wuss
- mydoglicks

good for emery, holtby is wuss
- mydoglicks

And that is what is killing the NHL in the minds of casual or non-hockey fans. I don't have a problem with 2 guys having a go if something happens between them. I don't have a problem with the other fights that broke out last night between skaters. But what exactly did Holtby do? He should get beat up by the back up goalie because he stopped all the shots the Flyers took at him?

Imagine if a MLB pitcher gets lit up. Does he then go into the other teams dugout and beat up the opposing pitcher? When MJ dropped 40+ points on someone, did the guy that was guarding him try to beat him up?

As Ek states in his current blog, the NHLPA is screwing up the game with stunts like this. Players don't respect each other.

Perhaps if the Flyers skated a little harder, played better defense, and stopped a few more pucks, they wouldn't be the door mats they are today.
- scottak

These 5 words are the root to all that is wrong in the NHL. I have 2 reasons why I think this is:
1) Global game. Back in the early days of the NHL, when it was mainly North American players, these guys played against each other since they were kids. They knew them both as friends and opposition players. Now as the game involves more money, players are looking out for themselves only.
2) Mandatory helmets. I know I am in the minority in this issue, but think about it - If I know that a check I am about to make, a high hit in the head, etc can severely injure the other guy, (because he is not wearing a helmet), I am not going to go through with said hit. If I know the player is protected, I am going to go through with it. Yes, helmets help with the strange bounces, deflection, etc, but it also gives players the go-ahead to be too aggressive.

holtby had it coming

What I'm gathering on here from a lot of fans is, any time a player turtles to the fight (a la Claude Lemieux vs. Darren McCarty), the player not turtling should be handed a harsh suspension. Because that's what happened; one player wanted to fight and the other didn't. It's happened for years, ever (gasp!) before the Broad Street Bullies era. Amazing, I know. And you know how many times players have been suspended for that in the past? Zero. Heck, in the McCarty/Lemieux "revenge" game, McCarty only got a 5-minute major (he scored the OT winner), and he actually threw a knee at a guy's face.

But yes, 15-game suspension should have been handed out.

"Here are those special air lift noogies you requested Lisa."

"Oh Todd....."

What I'm gathering on here from a lot of fans is, any time a player turtles to the fight (a la Claude Lemieux vs. Darren McCarty), the player not turtling should be handed a harsh suspension. Because that's what happened; one player wanted to fight and the other didn't. It's happened for years, ever (gasp!) before the Broad Street Bullies era. Amazing, I know. And you know how many times players have been suspended for that in the past? Zero. Heck, in the McCarty/Lemieux "revenge" game, McCarty only got a 5-minute major (he scored the OT winner), and he actually threw a knee at a guy's face.

But yes, 15-game suspension should have been handed out.
- jmatchett383

LoL 15 game suspension. so laughable.

The league should also start suspending all of the fans in the arena for enjoying it and cheering it.

A better response should have been why no Caps player tried to step in to help Holtby in a 7-0 game. LoL Maybe its because Holtby had it coming, he was a punk in the "A" and he recently threw some teammates under the bus. The Irony.

holtby had it coming
- 2Real

whether he wanted it or not

The "PUSSIFICATION" of the NHL is sickening! Maybe next time the Caps bench won't be so anxious to shoot there mouths off all game after seeing a goalie get pummeled. Simmonds showed Mr Wilson, he's not all that tough after all so he can try his enforcer next time they play the Flyers again if he wants too. The Flyers back down from no team so bring it on Caps. I was at the game and the Caps were flapping their gums the whole game so in my mind, they initiated what happened. Don't even care a bit who disagrees, I like the fighting, and want more of it.

What I'm gathering on here from a lot of fans is, any time a player turtles to the fight (a la Claude Lemieux vs. Darren McCarty), the player not turtling should be handed a harsh suspension. Because that's what happened; one player wanted to fight and the other didn't. It's happened for years, ever (gasp!) before the Broad Street Bullies era. Amazing, I know. And you know how many times players have been suspended for that in the past? Zero. Heck, in the McCarty/Lemieux "revenge" game, McCarty only got a 5-minute major (he scored the OT winner), and he actually threw a knee at a guy's face.

But yes, 15-game suspension should have been handed out.
- jmatchett383

This is a fair point. It's not always black and white with fighting in the NHL. It's hard to draw firm rules around fighting to be able to let it police the game when you think it is warranted and then suspend guys when you think it isn't.

I don't know all the specific details of "The Code", but I thought Holtby reacted in a way where Emery should have laid off. But he didn't.
Paul's done a good job in this blog illustrating which rules applied to the situation and why it was called the way it was by the referees.
Can anyone tell me who, if anyone, broke the rules of "The Code" in this case and what their punishment should be according to "The Code"?

This is a fair point. It's not always black and white with fighting in the NHL. It's hard to draw firm rules around fighting to be able to let it police the game when you think it is warranted and then suspend guys when you think it isn't.

I don't know all the specific details of "The Code", but I thought Holtby reacted in a way where Emery should have laid off. But he didn't.
Paul's done a good job in this blog illustrating which rules applied to the situation and why it was called the way it was by the referees.
Can anyone tell me who, if anyone, broke the rules of "The Code" in this case and what their punishment should be according to "The Code"?
- Chinaski

Usually when a player breaks the code, the appropriate response is for the other team to either send a goon after that player or, barring that, the offending team's star. However, since Emery got thrown out an no flyers player could be called a star right now, not much to do about it. Also, its hard to enforce with a goalie instead of a skater unless you wanna be a COMPLETE joke like Haley and fight the goalie as a skater.