Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Winning and Losing Streaks, Quick Hits

They will never truly contend again with Steady Eddy at the helm

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Winning and Losing Streaks, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

I admit it, I harp on Grossmann. And I definitely have developed a bias in his case. I still admit he's a NHL caliber defenseman and that a good portion of his difficulties come from usage and the players he's playing with. But I am definitely guilty of scapegoating him.

Part of that comes from the accountability issue. We hear over and over again from Berube about avoiding taking dumb penalties and being disciplined, yet we see some guys get cut a lot more slack than others.

Steve Downie has a bad set of games and he's scratched. Scott Hartnell has a dreadful night against Columbus, playing poorly and taking three penalties and the next game he's promoted to the top line.

Meszaros provides points, while being bad in his own end and gets scratched for Gustafsson, but meanwhile Grossmann has had a really bad stretch(and even you as a fairly big supporter of Grossmann have admitted as much) and he continues to play his 18-20 minutes a night despite that.

I get that grinders and third pair defensemen have less margin for error than guys like Hartnell or Grossmann as a regular on the PK and who plays larger minutes. And I am sure that Berube has communicated that he needs more out of his front line guys more than once.

But the old adage that talk is cheap comes to mind here. I don't see the shuffling of Downie, Rosehill, Meszaros, Gustafsson and Schenn having much of a positive effect on the front line guys in terms of stepping up their 200 foot game.

I'm also one of the positive ones. Things are not as bad as they look. They can absolutely be a better team, by simply playing better team defense. They seem to know this too, from what they say in interviews. That frustrates people.

And while I definitely advocate a trade, I also realize they can add a Drew Doughty or Duncan Keith and without a change in the 200 foot game, the positive effects would be minimal by such a trade.

“No, I don’t think they are bad habits," said Berube. "I think it’s a confidence thing where it doesn’t look like we want the puck. The support’s not there, the team support is not there and the team play is not there. To me, when that happens, that’s confidence. I’ve seen it my whole career.”

I respectfully disagree with the coach. Team confidence doesn't appear or disappear just like that. It starts with habits, results and repetition.
- bmeltzer

Re: bold - On (probably more than) one occasion, two Flyers watched a one-on-one scrum along the boards in the corner of their own zone, and when the puck was kicked around toward them, they both hesitated. It was Hall and a Dman - I don't remember which one - so I imagine Hall was waiting for the D to go get it. It turned out that they both went after it at the same time (late) and gave up the puck anyway when they failed to get it out of the zone.

Maybe they're at the point of thinking instead of reacting, or not trusting their mates to get the job done, but I've noticed that there are sometimes two guys trying to do a job that only one of them needed to do. Other times, like the incident above, it seems that nobody is sure what to do at all.

Awesome write up Bill...

Even when they win, I have never seen a fan base that will always have something to complain about...negativity rules. When they lose, holy craziness...get rid of him, her and the fan sitting in section 220.

The Flyers have the same issues that most other teams have...it's a long season.

Once again...nice write up.

They will never truly contend again with Steady Eddy at the helm
- Just5

You are what Bill was talking about in his article. You are so negative. You act like they are the worst team in the league. They are finally holding onto draft picks, they are finally paying attention to defense in the draft, they finally have a good young goalie that they have invested in and they (so far this season) have not been willing to trade promising young players for veterans.

It will take time to get out of the hole they are in. But to say they will never compete again when all they have done under Snider is compete is pure nonsense. I know they have not won in awhile but you cannot argue that this franchise wants to win.

I admit it, I harp on Grossmann. And I definitely have developed a bias in his case. I still admit he's a NHL caliber defenseman and that a good portion of his difficulties come from usage and the players he's playing with. But I am definitely guilty of scapegoating him.

Part of that comes from the accountability issue. We hear over and over again from Berube about avoiding taking dumb penalties and being disciplined, yet we see some guys get cut a lot more slack than others.

Steve Downie has a bad set of games and he's scratched. Scott Hartnell has a dreadful night against Columbus, playing poorly and taking three penalties and the next game he's promoted to the top line.

Meszaros provides points, while being bad in his own end and gets scratched for Gustafsson, but meanwhile Grossmann has had a really bad stretch(and even you as a fairly big supporter of Grossmann have admitted as much) and he continues to play his 18-20 minutes a night despite that.

I get that grinders and third pair defensemen have less margin for error than guys like Hartnell or Grossmann as a regular on the PK and who plays larger minutes. And I am sure that Berube has communicated that he needs more out of his front line guys more than once.

But the old adage that talk is cheap comes to mind here. I don't see the shuffling of Downie, Rosehill, Meszaros, Gustafsson and Schenn having much of a positive effect on the front line guys in terms of stepping up their 200 foot game.

I'm also one of the positive ones. Things are not as bad as they look. They can absolutely be a better team, by simply playing better team defense. They seem to know this too, from what they say in interviews. That frustrates people.

And while I definitely advocate a trade, I also realize they can add a Drew Doughty or Duncan Keith and without a change in the 200 foot game, the positive effects would be minimal by such a trade.
- Jsaquella

I couldn't have put it better myself -- all points included.

Great write up Bill,
I agree with some of the questions about the variable length that Berube seems to go for some players over others....and I hope that there is something behind the door that we aren't privy too that helps make these decisions more equitable than they seem.

As for the overall problem...I have said this before...and I think Bill has as well....this team is not built well. The parts don't all fit. Mind you, the fit is better with the more stressed puck support system that Berube has shown is his preference. When the wheels come off, the forwards are not keeping the gap closed, wings are standing still to receive passes and then trying to skate away from checking. Defensemen end up getting pulled out of position chasing players who should be covered by forwards who are not picking up in the zone. Shots from the point go un apposed from forwards who help create a second level of screen for point shots (and as a former goalie...that is a special kind of suck).

If the forwards don't play supporting hockey the blow-outs will happen again. If the defense don't get sucked into chasing the puck and leaving key checking zones the back door gimme goals will keep coming. No matter how much Mason and Emery do, they can't carry games every night.

But, it was nice to watch Boston play. That is what a puck support pressure team looks like. Just stinks when it is the Flyers getting taken apart by it.

Damn, man. Bill laid it out for the whiners last night!

I admit it, I harp on Grossmann. And I definitely have developed a bias in his case. I still admit he's a NHL caliber defenseman and that a good portion of his difficulties come from usage and the players he's playing with. But I am definitely guilty of scapegoating him.

Part of that comes from the accountability issue. We hear over and over again from Berube about avoiding taking dumb penalties and being disciplined, yet we see some guys get cut a lot more slack than others.

Steve Downie has a bad set of games and he's scratched. Scott Hartnell has a dreadful night against Columbus, playing poorly and taking three penalties and the next game he's promoted to the top line.

Meszaros provides points, while being bad in his own end and gets scratched for Gustafsson, but meanwhile Grossmann has had a really bad stretch(and even you as a fairly big supporter of Grossmann have admitted as much) and he continues to play his 18-20 minutes a night despite that.

I get that grinders and third pair defensemen have less margin for error than guys like Hartnell or Grossmann as a regular on the PK and who plays larger minutes. And I am sure that Berube has communicated that he needs more out of his front line guys more than once.

But the old adage that talk is cheap comes to mind here. I don't see the shuffling of Downie, Rosehill, Meszaros, Gustafsson and Schenn having much of a positive effect on the front line guys in terms of stepping up their 200 foot game.

I'm also one of the positive ones. Things are not as bad as they look. They can absolutely be a better team, by simply playing better team defense. They seem to know this too, from what they say in interviews. That frustrates people.

And while I definitely advocate a trade, I also realize they can add a Drew Doughty or Duncan Keith and without a change in the 200 foot game, the positive effects would be minimal by such a trade.
- Jsaquella

The difference with Grossmann is that he's shown a track record of success in the past. Guys like Mez and Gus haven't had sustained success for a long time or in Gus' case, ever.

I still think this team would be best if they shared the wealth (Timonen & Coburn) on defense. Timonen-Schenn has been a good pairing in the past. As has Grossmann-Coburn. They could then go to Streit-Mez/Gus a lot less frequently. Allow the other pairings to play 22- 23 minutes each. Then use Streit-Gus in more favorable situations.

You are what Bill was talking about in his article. You are so negative. You act like they are the worst team in the league. They are finally holding onto draft picks, they are finally paying attention to defense in the draft, they finally have a good young goalie that they have invested in and they (so far this season) have not been willing to trade promising young players for veterans.

It will take time to get out of the hole they are in. But to say they will never compete again when all they have done under Snider is compete is pure nonsense. I know they have not won in awhile but you cannot argue that this franchise wants to win.
- mickel25

It's just the way it is. It's what they always will be as long as eddy's there. They are like the nhl's version of the Dallas cowboys. Ask cowboys fans what they think of Jerry jones and their chances. In a cap environment these clubs are far behind the times.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Winning and Losing Streaks, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

Some of the same people who want to tear away at certain players and coaches who've been around the game all of their lives are the same ones who demonstrated their Hockey 101 knowledge yesterday as they oohed and aahed their disappointment over a play where Scott Hartnell was 10 feet offside and Claude Giroux fired the puck from the neutral zone with Boston goaltender Tuukka Rask way out of his net.

The difference with Grossmann is that he's shown a track record of success in the past. Guys like Mez and Gus haven't had sustained success for a long time or in Gus' case, ever.

I still think this team would be best if they shared the wealth (Timonen & Coburn) on defense. Timonen-Schenn has been a good pairing in the past. As has Grossmann-Coburn. They could then go to Streit-Mez/Gus a lot less frequently. Allow the other pairings to play 22- 23 minutes each. Then use Streit-Gus in more favorable situations.
- PhillySportsGuy

berube seems very willing to breakup every forward line that was playing well together, i wish he would do exactly what you typed to the d pairs

why is he married the current ones??


** and to me this helps the future as well as the now, the best schenn has played was during and directly after playing with timonen

berube seems very willing to breakup every forward line that was playing well together, i wish he would do exactly what you typed to the d pairs

why is he married the current ones??


** and to me this helps the future as well as the now, the best schenn has played was during and directly after playing with timonen
- -davies-

To me, based on past chemistry, the best lines are:

Coburn-Grossmann
Timo-Schenn
Blaaaaahhhh-Streit

Raffle-G-Jake
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmer
Downie-Couts-Read
Blaaaaahhhhh

Love the Sky Low Low reference, Bill.


Whether their poor play is mostly just a lack of confidence, like Berube said, or the inevitable result of so many bad habits, as you pointed out, one thing is for sure: the Flyers are a VERY fragile team.

For all the work that Berube and his staff have done in getting the Flyers to think quicker, and react faster, the Flyers are back to square one. They now stand around and watch a play as much as they ever did, and it's part and parcel of why they get dominated in their own zone.

At some point they have to admit that confidence and good habits can only go so far. It's obviously a lack of ability - or, at the very least, a bad mix (especially on defense) that exacerbates things.

An infusion of team speed and quickness is not only way overdue, it's so obvious that it worries me that Homer hasn't done it by now. I can only hope that this isn't also a blind spot for Hexy, whenever he might take over.

Re: bold - On (probably more than) one occasion, two Flyers watched a one-on-one scrum along the boards in the corner of their own zone, and when the puck was kicked around toward them, they both hesitated. It was Hall and a Dman - I don't remember which one - so I imagine Hall was waiting for the D to go get it. It turned out that they both went after it at the same time (late) and gave up the puck anyway when they failed to get it out of the zone.

Maybe they're at the point of thinking instead of reacting, or not trusting their mates to get the job done, but I've noticed that there are sometimes two guys trying to do a job that only one of them needed to do. Other times, like the incident above, it seems that nobody is sure what to do at all.
- tangent_man

They do hesitate on a LOT of plays. It's almost as if they're analyzing the play first, and reacting second. And they had this problem under Lavy as well, which makes it all the more mystifying.

a team is rarely as bad or as good as it looks. right now they're beyond bad. they will rebound, but ultimately it won't matter. they don't have the skill, the right mix, and the consistency to play the right way, and by right way i mean committed team defense for them to be anything more than an average bubble team. it's frustrating, and it is what it is. i just hope any moves made this season, and perhaps more importantly, the moves made in the offseason are good ones.

- -davies-

Actually those were all the STH at the arena oohing and awing.

As someone who has been a fan of the Flyers and hockey since the early 70s, allow me to make some observations and comments.

The best GM in Flyers history, Keith Allen, had this philosophy: every move the team should make should be for the sole purpose of building a club that can win the Stanley Cup. I believe the Flyers need to get back to this theory. Going out and signing players like VL and Streit are not moves that will help this team grow into a cup contender. However, drafting well, trading smartly and adding free agents to fill the last few remaining needs for a contending club will produce the desired results.

Some observations:
This team, when playing at their best, is not a contender. Their D while good to be a playoff team, is just not good enough to win 4 rounds of playoff hockey against top competition.

Blowing up the forward corps and moving 1st round picks and prospects to bring in the likes of Byfuglien, Yandle, JayBo and Edler would be unwise IMO.

Also laying all the blame on the D, without holding the forwards accountable for their defensive shortcomings is simply ridiculous. Defense is a TEAM CONCEPT, no one should be above blame when the team is playing poorly.

Some suggestions:
Do everything within reason to move the following players for picks or prospects at or before the trade deadline:
Emery
Meszaros
Timonen
Downie

Be willing to move one and only one young forward in a deal to land one good dman.

Stay patient, continue to let the young forwards and younger dmen develop. I'd rather miss the playoffs both this year and next, if thats what it takes for this team to develop into a true contender by 2016 or so. To me, that's a much better plan then making a bunch of knee jerk moves to just get the team into the playoffs year after year while sacrificing the future.

Finally, as Jsaq has been saying for a while now, HOLD ALL PLAYERS EQUALLY ACCOUNTABLE! If a guy like Giroux or Hartnell does something stupid, bench them for a period. When a guy like Grossman plays terribly for 3 straight games, sit him out for a game. When a forward doesn't hustle back on D, that forward should have a long seat on the bench. No one, not Giroux, not Timonen, no one, is above the team.

Sorry for the length of this post, but this has been building for some time. Since firing Hitchcock, the Flyers have showed the same lack of discipline and commitment to team defense under 3 coaches. It's time for the players and the GM, who put this group together, to start taking blame.

Damn, man. Bill laid it out for the whiners last night!
- PhillySportsGuy

People were negative yesterday?

People were negative yesterday?
- Pixote Andolini

and the day before that.

As someone who has been a fan of the Flyers and hockey since the early 70s, allow me to make some observations and comments.

*observations and comments snipped*
- BiggE

As another old-timer, not that that matters, I agree. Nicely stated.

To me, based on past chemistry, the best lines are:

Coburn-Grossmann
Timo-Schenn
Blaaaaahhhh-Streit

Raffle-G-Jake
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmer
Downie-Couts-Read
Blaaaaahhhhh
- PhillySportsGuy

You are correct, it shouldn't matter how long a guy has been in the league or how much he's being paid. If VL fits best right now as a 4th line center, that's damn well where he ought to be. If Streit should be on the 3rd pair, playing only 10-12 mins per game plus pp time, so be it. I guarantee you, GMs like Holland and Lamiorello would back their coaches 100% for making those types of moves. Of course, GMs like that wouldn't have signed VL or Streit in the first place, at least not to those terms.

They do hesitate on a LOT of plays. It's almost as if they're analyzing the play first, and reacting second. And they had this problem under Lavy as well, which makes it all the more mystifying.
- FlyerGuy

"Don't think, Axel...it makes my Richard itch."

People were negative yesterday?
- Pixote Andolini

Don't be negative, just keep paying $$$ & enjoy!

no offense, but you take the whiners out & the building is 1/2 empty, nice!

Don't be negative, enjoy the blowouts