Jeremy Laura: Looking forward part 3 - Pius Suter

He'll be better than a Damien Brunner!

The very minute I heard that Chicago wasn't going to qualify him I wanted Stevie to try and get him. Was pretty shocked they didn't want qualify him to save a few bucks. We'll see how it goes... but I do think he has the skillset to improve this team.

The very minute I heard that Chicago wasn't going to qualify him I wanted Stevie to try and get him. Was pretty shocked they didn't want qualify him to save a few bucks. We'll see how it goes... but I do think he has the skillset to improve this team.
- Vladdie_Kon1

If you get a chance, Awood did a nice compilation on that YouTube. He had goals and passes that were so pretty. I love seeing creativity like that

In reality he is better than what we had before we got him. So whatever happens i think its nothing but bonuses. Unless he completely craps the bed, this is a win. There were those who thought Vrana wouldn't produce like he did in Washington cuz the talent he was surrounded with there and look how that has turned out so far. The Captain knows what he is doing, and has a great eye for those diamonds in the rough. We will be ok with Stevie leading us once again.

In reality he is better than what we had before we got him. So whatever happens i think its nothing but bonuses. Unless he completely craps the bed, this is a win. There were those who thought Vrana wouldn't produce like he did in Washington cuz the talent he was surrounded with there and look how that has turned out so far. The Captain knows what he is doing, and has a great eye for those diamonds in the rough. We will be ok with Stevie leading us once again.
- mplackitt

I’m very excited about Suter. Trying not to get ahead of myself, but his instincts and creativity are really high. I put him as my third most exciting addition for the series, but really it’s tied with Nedeljkovic. Those two pickups feel really, really good.

In reality he is better than what we had before we got him. So whatever happens i think its nothing but bonuses. Unless he completely craps the bed, this is a win. There were those who thought Vrana wouldn't produce like he did in Washington cuz the talent he was surrounded with there and look how that has turned out so far. The Captain knows what he is doing, and has a great eye for those diamonds in the rough. We will be ok with Stevie leading us once again.
- mplackitt

Umm, let's also remember that some people, ahem, thought Vrana would succeed as he got more ice-time and more PP time in Detroit. He wasn't playing with Ovechkin and Backstrom and then downgrading to Detroit, but he was often stuck on the Caps 3rd line. So the talent of his linemates has slightly improved upon coming to Detroit. And then as I said the overall icetime. So I was one of the people very excited for Vrana.

Suter is about to have a huge downgrade in talent. Big difference. I would also note that if you are going to highlight his offensive creativity, it's also valid to point out his flaws. As a 2C he needs to be heavily sheltered. So no defensive zone starts. He's poor on faceoffs. He'll suffer on the road when opponents can match-up top lines.

Just being realistic.

Umm, let's also remember that some people, ahem, thought Vrana would succeed as he got more ice-time and more PP time in Detroit. He wasn't playing with Ovechkin and Backstrom and then downgrading to Detroit, but he was often stuck on the Caps 3rd line. So the talent of his linemates has slightly improved upon coming to Detroit. And then as I said the overall icetime. So I was one of the people very excited for Vrana.

Suter is about to have a huge downgrade in talent. Big difference. I would also note that if you are going to highlight his offensive creativity, it's also valid to point out his flaws. As a 2C he needs to be heavily sheltered. So no defensive zone starts. He's poor on faceoffs. He'll suffer on the road when opponents can match-up top lines.

Just being realistic.
- Kooleus

Yeah I don’t see the excitement from the moves. They should be a little better but any significant improvement will be from the young guys improving.

Ned and Greiss vs Bernier and Greiss is a wash at best.

Leddy, Seider, and Oesterle vs Nemeth, Merrill, and Cholowski should be a solid upgrade.

Suter, Stephens, and Rasmussen vs Glendening, Helm, and Filppula should be a marginal upgrade.

This was a 70 point pace team last year. A successful season would be hitting 80 points imo.

Umm, let's also remember that some people, ahem, thought Vrana would succeed as he got more ice-time and more PP time in Detroit. He wasn't playing with Ovechkin and Backstrom and then downgrading to Detroit, but he was often stuck on the Caps 3rd line. So the talent of his linemates has slightly improved upon coming to Detroit. And then as I said the overall icetime. So I was one of the people very excited for Vrana.

Suter is about to have a huge downgrade in talent. Big difference. I would also note that if you are going to highlight his offensive creativity, it's also valid to point out his flaws. As a 2C he needs to be heavily sheltered. So no defensive zone starts. He's poor on faceoffs. He'll suffer on the road when opponents can match-up top lines.

Just being realistic.
- Kooleus

Kool, I'm kinda on the fence about what you're saying here. On the one hand, Vrana was getting better line mates than with the Cap, but on the other, Suter is facing a "huge downgrade in talent,' I'm of the opinion that Vrana faced the same downgrade in talent that Suter will be facing UNTIL we see what the lines looks like. Suter could well explode like Vrana did (full disclosure: I wasn't a fan on trading Mantha but withheld judgement and found the move good for the Wings....) with 14pts in 11 games.

Suter was an awesome player with the Hawks, given with whom he played/how he was deployed. Until we see what that looks like, I'm not sure what to expect form Suter, but he's a damn sight better than what we've had in the past. BUT, I'm really excited to see him and what he'll bring to the team. I would opine that if he's teamed with guys like Vrana, Bert, Ryan, Fabbs, Zadina.....these are really good players ("really good" being relative, of course...), so would think he's got the chance to excel. He' still young & developing so who knows. Vrana had the Cap's 3d line (primarily how he was deployed...), and had good numbers, came tot he Wings & played across the line-scrambling, and logged some promising numbers. I would think that Suter would be the same. You did state that Vrana played with "slightly improved" talent of his linemates, Suter will face the same. That's a good call, really.

I'm excited for Suter, that was a good get for us. He's going to do well with us, in time. As the talent of the Wings improves, some of these kids will explode, some will fade away. In the aggregate, I think the moves made this off-season have vastly improved the POTENTIAL of the team. How they're deployed and how the gell will determine the final results. But this team is VASTLY better than last year's.

I would describe both Suter and Nedeljkovic as "smart bets." I like the signings but agree that people should temper their expectations. The Wings continue to patch holes in the middle and bottom of the roster but the main problem (lack of elite talent) remains unfixed as of yet.

Both players have been very good so far at the NHL level. At the same time, both are already 25 with very limited NHL experience considering their age. It remains to be seen whether the level of performance they showed last season can be sustained over the next several years. (Nedeljkovic in particular is almost certainly due for at least some regression.)

Signing both to two-year, mid-priced deals is, I think, a smart investment. If they keep playing as well as they have been, those contracts are fair to good value from a team perspective. If they tail off, you're only on the hook for two years.

And if they perform above expectations, hit UFA at 27, and you either have to pay them more or let them go? Fine. While they both appear to be solid players, they're not and never going to be in (or even close to) the elite / irreplaceable tier, which means you're almost always better off in the long run signing 2-3 year deals at fair value than locking them up long-term and ending up another Abdelkader/Nielsen/Howard/etc. situation.

Worth noting: Suter scored 5 goals in 8 games against Detroit, and 9 goals in 47 games against everyone else combined.

Don't get me wrong, the underlying stats suggest he is a solid play driver on both ends of the ice, even when adjusting for his linemates and deployment. I think there's reason to be optimistic about his ability to contribute as a decent if unspectacular two-way 2C.

But what I am saying is that, if you mainly watch Red Wings games and your impression of Suter mainly comes from the eye test, there's a real risk you're going to overrate the guy.

Worth noting: Suter scored 5 goals in 8 games against Detroit, and 9 goals in 47 games against everyone else combined.

Don't get me wrong, the underlying stats suggest he is a solid play driver on both ends of the ice, even when adjusting for his linemates and deployment. I think there's reason to be optimistic about his ability to contribute as a decent if unspectacular two-way 2C.

But what I am saying is that, if you mainly watch Red Wings games and your impression of Suter mainly comes from the eye test, there's a real risk you're going to overrate the guy.
- Sven22

Good reasoning! Thanks Sven

Umm, let's also remember that some people, ahem, thought Vrana would succeed as he got more ice-time and more PP time in Detroit. He wasn't playing with Ovechkin and Backstrom and then downgrading to Detroit, but he was often stuck on the Caps 3rd line. So the talent of his linemates has slightly improved upon coming to Detroit. And then as I said the overall icetime. So I was one of the people very excited for Vrana.

Suter is about to have a huge downgrade in talent. Big difference. I would also note that if you are going to highlight his offensive creativity, it's also valid to point out his flaws. As a 2C he needs to be heavily sheltered. So no defensive zone starts. He's poor on faceoffs. He'll suffer on the road when opponents can match-up top lines.

Just being realistic.
- Kooleus

I agree expectations should be tempered. I'm not sure I agree with you that Suter is a defensive liability. My general impression is that he's average to above average in that department. Certainly on a line with Kane and DeBrincat he provided a disproportionate share of the defensive conscience.

He is terrible on faceoffs but so are Namestnikov, Fabbri, Rasmussen, and Gagner, who are the other potentially even remotely credible middle six centers on this roster. That doesn't mean it isn't still a weakness, of course, but on the flipside, faceoffs are overrated and Suter isn't a downgrade in that department as much as he is simply not an improvement.

Kool, I'm kinda on the fence about what you're saying here. On the one hand, Vrana was getting better line mates than with the Cap, but on the other, Suter is facing a "huge downgrade in talent,' I'm of the opinion that Vrana faced the same downgrade in talent that Suter will be facing UNTIL we see what the lines looks like. Suter could well explode like Vrana did (full disclosure: I wasn't a fan on trading Mantha but withheld judgement and found the move good for the Wings....) with 14pts in 11 games.

Suter was an awesome player with the Hawks, given with whom he played/how he was deployed. Until we see what that looks like, I'm not sure what to expect form Suter, but he's a damn sight better than what we've had in the past. BUT, I'm really excited to see him and what he'll bring to the team. I would opine that if he's teamed with guys like Vrana, Bert, Ryan, Fabbs, Zadina.....these are really good players ("really good" being relative, of course...), so would think he's got the chance to excel. He' still young & developing so who knows. Vrana had the Cap's 3d line (primarily how he was deployed...), and had good numbers, came tot he Wings & played across the line-scrambling, and logged some promising numbers. I would think that Suter would be the same. You did state that Vrana played with "slightly improved" talent of his linemates, Suter will face the same. That's a good call, really.

I'm excited for Suter, that was a good get for us. He's going to do well with us, in time. As the talent of the Wings improves, some of these kids will explode, some will fade away. In the aggregate, I think the moves made this off-season have vastly improved the POTENTIAL of the team. How they're deployed and how the gell will determine the final results. But this team is VASTLY better than last year's.
- mcmastermike1968

How about we look at actual facts. Vrana was getting just over 14 minutes a night with Washington. There were 7 or 8 forwards averaging more than that. In the last 10 games before the trade he was under 13 minutes a night in Washington. There were times that he was playing with Backstrom or Kuznetsov at center, but other times when he was buried on a 3rd line with guys like Sprong, Sheary.

Many people overreacted thinking we had just traded Mantha for a 3rd line bum. Smart people knew that Vrana would get a more prominent role in Detroit and had the skill to put up points. In the 11 games with Detroit he played over 17 minutes a night, so 3 whole extra minutes. He was prominent on the PP as well.

To claim Vrana faced a downgrade in talent akin to Suter's downgrade is quite a stretch. Vrana spent time with a struggling Kuznetsov, Sprong, Sheary, Tom Wilson. Suter spent most of the year with Patrick Kane. Often joined by DeBrincat. Seems like Vrana made a lateral move in talent, but got way more ice-time. Suter averaged 16:20 last year. He's likely to see that again if he plays 2C. BUt he'll be going from Kane and DeBrincat to Fabbri and Bertuzzi? Maybe some Zadina. Sorry. Huge downgrade.

I called for Vrana to succeed and he did. I'm calling for Suter to regress and it makes me the bad guy. Makes sense.

How about we look at actual facts. Vrana was getting just over 14 minutes a night with Washington. There were 7 or 8 forwards averaging more than that. In the last 10 games before the trade he was under 13 minutes a night in Washington. There were times that he was playing with Backstrom or Kuznetsov at center, but other times when he was buried on a 3rd line with guys like Sprong, Sheary.

Many people overreacted thinking we had just traded Mantha for a 3rd line bum. Smart people knew that Vrana would get a more prominent role in Detroit and had the skill to put up points. In the 11 games with Detroit he played over 17 minutes a night, so 3 whole extra minutes. He was prominent on the PP as well.

To claim Vrana faced a downgrade in talent akin to Suter's downgrade is quite a stretch. Vrana spent time with a struggling Kuznetsov, Sprong, Sheary, Tom Wilson. Suter spent most of the year with Patrick Kane. Often joined by DeBrincat. Seems like Vrana made a lateral move in talent, but got way more ice-time. Suter averaged 16:20 last year. He's likely to see that again if he plays 2C. BUt he'll be going from Kane and DeBrincat to Fabbri and Bertuzzi? Maybe some Zadina. Sorry. Huge downgrade.

I called for Vrana to succeed and he did. I'm calling for Suter to regress and it makes me the bad guy. Makes sense.
- Kooleus

Dude, where, exactly where, did I say you were the "bad guy"? Exact words. I didn't I actually was very conciliatory in my word choice because you often are more coarse in verbiage choice with those with whom you disagree. That completely negates any constructive discussion which may have been able to occur. And to think I was actually digesting your reply....then the zinger accusation. Unreal.

moving on.