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ObeseOprah
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 01.17.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:24 PM ET
If the Hawks trade Keith, we are not rebuilding, we are tanking.

We've seen how the team looks without Keith, it's not good. You can hem and haw about salary and term and age, but Duncan Keith is the straw that stirs the drink for 25 minutes a game.

The only way I'd entertain the idea of trading Keith is if we're getting back two high first round picks (#15 overall or better) and a haul of other prospects.

He had a down year on a very bad team. If Keith goes, prepare for dark days.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:28 PM ET
I think many people are stuck in the mindset of Skinner for like 2001/2012 when he was smaller, didn't care for physicality at all, and missed like 15-20 games for a concussion one of those years. In reality, he's average size hockey player, built pretty stocky; who isn't physical by any means but he uses his size appropriately; he's one of the better takeaway guys in the league (2nd best this past season after McDavid and above Schmaltz); and he's been, as you say, durable. He's a good hockey player.

And I def think some have opinions of players from years previous, both good and bad. It comes up more often for people wanting players that used to be good and are now not more often, though.

PS. I'm not advocating that the Hawks should get him or anything (I wouldn't mind him but he is on a expiring contract), I just couldn't let an inaccuracy about size go when it's been such an obsession here of late.

- L_B_R


Good post. Best thing about the Hawks, for me, often being unwatchable I see more of other teams and for some reason enjoy the Canes. I see a good 5-6-7 games of CAR and still think Skinner is not as durable as he is. But as far as the way he plays I do understand his skill, value and style.

He fits the Hawks "retool" IMO. 1 yr, will make the club competitive next yr, if AA is in the deal they're out from under his contract and if he fits they sign him, 26 yrs old, for 5 yrs. If he doesn't fit the club gains the 4.5 mil per hit AA had.
Gerk
St Louis Blues
Location: say it aint so TARASENKO, YT
Joined: 01.07.2008

Jul 9 @ 2:32 PM ET
If the Hawks trade Keith, we are not rebuilding, we are tanking.

We've seen how the team looks without Keith, it's not good. You can hem and haw about salary and term and age, but Duncan Keith is the straw that stirs the drink for 25 minutes a game.

The only way I'd entertain the idea of trading Keith is if we're getting back two high first round picks (#15 overall or better) and a haul of other prospects.

He had a down year on a very bad team. If Keith goes, prepare for dark days.

- ObeseOprah


Watch the market for Karlsson, that will set the prices. Keep in mind Keith is 6 years older as well.
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:33 PM ET
If the Hawks trade Keith, we are not rebuilding, we are tanking.

We've seen how the team looks without Keith, it's not good. You can hem and haw about salary and term and age, but Duncan Keith is the straw that stirs the drink for 25 minutes a game.

The only way I'd entertain the idea of trading Keith is if we're getting back two high first round picks (#15 overall or better) and a haul of other prospects.

He had a down year on a very bad team. If Keith goes, prepare for dark days.

- ObeseOprah


Yep, for 2 yrs until Joki or Mitchell are his replacement or 3-4 yrs until Bovquist is.

But yes, if you think the Hawks have a cup run in them this yr or next keep Keith as you say. If you don't think so, as I do, move him now while he has value instead of 2 yrs from now when he has much much less.
RickJ
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Burlington, ON
Joined: 01.12.2010

Jul 9 @ 2:38 PM ET
That's a fair complaint I guess, though I personally don't care for Bill Peters as a coach. Skinner has his flaws for sure but being small and shooting only from the perimeter are not some of them.
- L_B_R

Peters definitely didn't care too much for Skinner's less than stellar defensive play. Weak goaltending aside, he posts some pretty large +/- numbers most years to the negative.

But to me that's like saying Max Pacioretty and JVR have detractors because they don't play a physical game. Having the ability to put the puck in the net regularly isn't very common in the NHL anymore and teams pay for that. That's why Kovalchuk got a contract like he did. Can only have so many Joakim Nordstom's on a team.

Revco38
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Wherever I leave my hat
Joined: 07.26.2006

Jul 9 @ 2:43 PM ET
Yep, for 2 yrs until Joki or Mitchell are his replacement or 3-4 yrs until Bovquist is.

But yes, if you think the Hawks have a cup run in them this yr or next keep Keith as you say. If you don't think so, as I do, move him now while he has value instead of 2 yrs from now when he has much much less.

- Mr Ricochet


Even with "bounce back" years from our CORE, I think we are a bubble team at best. Now is the time to start accumulating as many assets as we can. With Colliton (sp) now in Rockford, we have someone who can actually help in developing them.


Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:43 PM ET
Great blog and fun to read all the different stories! I think some years ago I shared a bit of mine, but why not sharing it again

Born in '79 in the most western part of Germany close to the dutch border. So not really much going in the matter of hockey. So I got to know the Hawks by EA's NHL computer game back in '92. Playing against a friend of mine, at first I saw and loved the jersey (also recognized it was the same team on the beanie he had in his shelf) I chose the Hawks and since then my love for the blackhawks took off and got bigger and bigger

Despite playing that game (and every annual version) for millions of hours - Sergei Krivokrasov was a stud in that game btw... - I started searching for every info about the team as well as the whole league, rosters, etc. I tried to catch every information I could. Back then it meant watching game highlights, reading all the stuff on the internet via 56k modem Already startet to read in forums, local newspapers, rumor sites, ordering magazines and year books, etc.

Must have been in '94 when my parents went to Chicago and brought an original JR-jersey (bought at HawkQuarters) as present for me. Totally stoked and I still remember I couldn't even throw that HQ plastic bag away Of course I was totally shocked when I learned that JR got traded...

Then for sure I experienced the 2000s hawks with the ABC line, Mike Smith as GM, Karpovtsev and so on... But in soccer I am a big Schalke 04 supporter so I was already used to tough times with favourite sports teams and I def cannot be called a bandwagon fan

So as obviously everybody here I absolutely enjoyed the times when the hawks got better and better, culminating in 3 Stanley Cup wins. Fortunately internet connections also got better and faster by the time as it made following all the videos and publications way easier So in playoff times I put the alarm at night and watched almost every game (doing so in regular season would have probably killed me being short of sleep...) and went to work right after the end of the games. Still get goosebumps when I think of some games that were so close and almost unreal (eg Hoss scoring vs Preds coming out of the penalty box or Seabs deflected game winner vs Detroit...).

Got a bit mad at myself when I didn't take the opportunity to go to the SCF back in 2010. But at least I decided to do so in 2013. As soon as they beat the Kings I asked my boss to get a week off, bought a standing-room-only ticket for game 5 at the UC, booked my flights and went to Chicago. I stayed in an airbnb room opposite to the UC and had one of the best weeks in my whole life, loving the city, meeting amazing people and of course seeing the game 5 win live at the UC with great guys in the SRO section. Then experiencing the "17 seconds" in a sports bar in Chicago, celebrating the SC in the streets and then getting totally wasted in a bar called "Stout"

Unfortunately I had to leave on the day of the parade, but at least I could see most of it at the airport on TV.

So far I only managed to see only that one game live, but already booked the flights and hopefully No. 2 will be in Notre Dame for the Winter Classic

That's pretty much about it, all started with a computer game and it never stopped

- MDGHawk


Very enjoyable read. Makes me feel inadequate as a fan. ..... What kind of live hockey do you get to in Germany? Are you near any of these places where a favorite Jr player of mine, Freddy Tiffels (kid plays the game the right way), played? https://www.eliteprospect...er/85240/frederik-tiffels

Croatia the favorite for the World Cup?
DarthKane
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: 5.13.4.9
Joined: 02.23.2012

Jul 9 @ 2:44 PM ET
Development Camp roster

FORWARDS (20)
25 Barratt, Evan L 5’11” 182
67 Bondra, Radovan L 6’5” 222
14 Coughlin, Liam L 6’2” 202
16 Dahlstrom, John L 6’1” 187
84 Fortin, Alexandre L 6’1” 187
76 From, Mathias R 6’1” 161
15 Hakkarainen, Mikael L 6’0” 193
58 Kuffner, Ryan L 6’1” 185
54 Kurashev, Philipp L 5’11” 191
83 Maksimovich, Kyle L 5’9” 174
63 Moynihan, Connor L 6’4” 209
74 Nilsson, Jacob L 5’10” 174
73 Noel, Nathan R 5’10” 179
94 Nordgren, Niklas R 5’9” 169
48 Olofsson, Fredrik L 6’2” 200
85 Ramsey, Jack R 6’3” 191
23 Slavin, Josiah L 6’3” 189
64 Soderlund, Tim L 5’9” 163
59 Starrett, Beau L 6’5” 223
24 Wise, Jake L 5’10” 195

DEFENSEMEN (15)
34 Beaudin, Nicolas L 5’10” 172
26 Boqvist, Adam R 5’11” 165
47 Carlsson, Lucas L 6’0” 187
17 Ess, Joshua L 5’11” 180
42 Galvas, Jakub L 5’11” 162
53 Gilbert, Dennis L 6’1” 195
55 Hillman, Blake L 6’1” 180
28 Jokiharju, Henri R 6’1” 180
36 Krys, Chad L 5’11” 185
44 Laavainen, Roope R 6’1” 194
52 Massie, Jake L 6’1” 177
46 Mitchell, Ian R 5’11” 173
43 Ryczek, Jake R 5’10” 179
6 Shea, Ryan L 6’0” 175
5 Tuulola, Joni L 6’2” 180


GOALTENDERS (6)
70 Gravel, Alexis R 6’2” 222
30 Jones, Peyton L 6’2”
31 Marchand, Chase L 6’0” 180
40 Marshall, Linden L 6’3” 195
92 Peeters, Wouter L 6’4” 220
49 Robson, Mathew L 6’3” 194

BOLD is a Signed Hawks Player/Prospect.

- sofaking3


On defense who will make the bigger impact at camp - Boqvist, Jokiharju, Beaudin, other?
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:48 PM ET
Peters definitely didn't care too much for Skinner's less than stellar defensive play. Weak goaltending aside, he posts some pretty large +/- numbers most years to the negative.

But to me that's like saying Max Pacioretty and JVR have detractors because they don't play a physical game. Having the ability to put the puck in the net regularly isn't very common in the NHL anymore and teams pay for that. That's why Kovalchuk got a contract like he did. Can only have so many Joakim Nordstom's on a team.

- RickJ


It's why Neal and JVR, and soon to be Pacioretty, will get contracts that will be anchors the final 2 yrs. Dmen and centers too are at a premium and you have to pay to keep them or overpay to acquire them.

That's why a guy like AA is so much more valuable than many think.
MDGHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Joined: 06.20.2013

Jul 9 @ 2:49 PM ET
Great story MDG! Thanks for sharing.
- Justin Lowe


Thanks Justin and keep on the great work since taking over here at HB
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:50 PM ET
On defense who will make the bigger impact at camp - Boqvist, Jokiharju, Beaudin, other?
- DarthKane


In this order. Mitchell, Joki, Boqvist.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:50 PM ET
Not to let facts get in the way of your fetish with other dudes' size, but Skinner is 200 lbs. He's also top 20 in terms of high danger shot rate and that's why his xGF is in the top 5% of the league, but sure, he's a perimeter player.

I'd prefer the Hawks to focus on getting a top 4 d-man or a lower line checking center but that's no reason to not look up general easy to find facts about a player just so you can shoehorn him into some narrative.

- L_B_R


AHH yes LBR, another who sits in her skybox looking at advanced stats so there is litle surprise you are another one who thinks this is Euro Ice no check mens league LOL. Never taken a body check along the boards or tried to get to the crease with a big nasty Dman in your face. He may be 200lbs soaking wet, but he is still soft and a perimeter player.
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:53 PM ET
Peters definitely didn't care too much for Skinner's less than stellar defensive play. Weak goaltending aside, he posts some pretty large +/- numbers most years to the negative.

But to me that's like saying Max Pacioretty and JVR have detractors because they don't play a physical game. Having the ability to put the puck in the net regularly isn't very common in the NHL anymore and teams pay for that. That's why Kovalchuk got a contract like he did. Can only have so many Joakim Nordstom's on a team.

- RickJ

+/- minus is not a stat I take any stock in so I don't care about that imo. Skinner def isn't great defensively, that's objectively true, though Peters entire line up the last few years has been playing a terrible defensive system so idk if his opinion is all that valid. Maybe he needed different personnel to run his system, though.

Skinner is a good offensive hockey player that is more of a topper on an already pretty good team than one in transition. Unless they get him and want to try to flip him, then I don't particularly want him. And flipping him would be hard because he has a NMC and has already been rejecting trades.

I think the Hawks have enough guys that can potentially contribute offensively - they need better defensive guys imo.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:53 PM ET
If the Hawks trade Keith, we are not rebuilding, we are tanking.

We've seen how the team looks without Keith, it's not good. You can hem and haw about salary and term and age, but Duncan Keith is the straw that stirs the drink for 25 minutes a game.

The only way I'd entertain the idea of trading Keith is if we're getting back two high first round picks (#15 overall or better) and a haul of other prospects.

He had a down year on a very bad team. If Keith goes, prepare for dark days.

- ObeseOprah


Like JJ said in his blog, if the Hawks stand pat, they are tanking without explicitly saying so. Keith to Toronto and you can probably get their 2 best non-NHL prospects and their late first.
ObeseOprah
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 01.17.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:54 PM ET
Yep, for 2 yrs until Joki or Mitchell are his replacement or 3-4 yrs until Bovquist is.

But yes, if you think the Hawks have a cup run in them this yr or next keep Keith as you say. If you don't think so, as I do, move him now while he has value instead of 2 yrs from now when he has much much less.

- Mr Ricochet


I honestly would not rule out a cup run this year or next. Plenty of teams have been in worse circumstances the year prior and gone on significant playoff runs:

-2018 Caps: previous year lost to the Pens AGAIN, lost Shattenkirk, Williams, Johansson, Alzner. Things looked like the would absolutely be a worse team.

-2018 Jets: previous year missed the playoffs, had aging Byfuglien and Wheeler on big time deals, a haul of prospects besides Laine and Ehlers that were still somewhat up in the air (Copp, Connor, Roslovic, Morrissey), and a GIANT question mark at Goalie (sound familiar?). Well Hellebyuk bounced back, and they made a big run before running into the buzz saw of LV.

-2018 Bruins: previous year got bounced in the first round by Ottawa. Had mega-deals given out to two 29+ year old centers, a very old veteran defenseman in Chara, a somewhat unstable $7M goalie in Rask, and fans were getting tired of hearing 'let the kids play and pick up the slack'. Pastrnak was great, but the haul of retooling era prospects hadn't claimed the throne yet in McAvoy, Carlo, Debrusk, Bjork, Donato, Heinen. The Bruins became a powerhouse and made it past Toronto before falling to Tampa.


What's the difference for most of these teams? Patience with their prospects, a hot goalie, and sudden surge of youth and speed that let's the aging stars play their game. Ovechkin, Byfuglien, Chara, Holtby, Hellebyuck, and Rask have all had to deal with the 'does he still have it?' headlines the past couple of years.

We need to be patient, and we need to figure out who from the last 5 drafts is going to step into a McAvoy/Copp/Debrusk role for this team.

The Hawks in 2012-13 had plenty of question marks: Hossa, Crawford, who's playing center on the second line, is Saad ready, who replaces all the lost talent?

Shaw, Saad, Kruger, Bickell and others stepped up, and suddenly we were an unstoppable powerhouse. It's possible. Crawford is probably 75% of it, the rest is up to our young guys.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:55 PM ET
G

That's pretty much about it, all started with a computer game and it never stopped

- MDGHawk



Have you watched Kahun play much since you're in Germany?? What's your scouting report on him to MDGHawk or any of our other Euro fans who may have seen him more than in the Olympics.
mrpaulish
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Itasca, IL
Joined: 01.18.2010

Jul 9 @ 2:56 PM ET
I honestly would not rule out a cup run this year or next. Plenty of teams have been in worse circumstances the year prior and gone on significant playoff runs:

-2018 Caps: previous year lost to the Pens AGAIN, lost Shattenkirk, Williams, Johansson, Alzner. Things looked like the would absolutely be a worse team.

-2018 Jets: previous year missed the playoffs, had aging Byfuglien and Wheeler on big time deals, a haul of prospects besides Laine and Ehlers that were still somewhat up in the air (Copp, Connor, Roslovic, Morrissey), and a GIANT question mark at Goalie (sound familiar?). Well Hellebyuk bounced back, and they made a big run before running into the buzz saw of LV.

-2018 Bruins: previous year got bounced in the first round by Ottawa. Had mega-deals given out to two 29+ year old centers, a very old veteran defenseman in Chara, a somewhat unstable $7M goalie in Rask, and fans were getting tired of hearing 'let the kids play and pick up the slack'. Pastrnak was great, but the haul of retooling era prospects hadn't claimed the throne yet in McAvoy, Carlo, Debrusk, Bjork, Donato, Heinen. The Bruins became a powerhouse and made it past Toronto before falling to Tampa.


What's the difference for most of these teams? Patience with their prospects, a hot goalie, and sudden surge of youth and speed that let's the aging stars play their game. Ovechkin, Byfuglien, Chara, Holtby, Hellebyuck, and Rask have all had to deal with the 'does he still have it?' headlines the past couple of years.

We need to be patient, and we need to figure out who from the last 5 drafts is going to step into a McAvoy/Copp/Debrusk role for this team.

The Hawks in 2012-13 had plenty of question marks: Hossa, Crawford, who's playing center on the second line, is Saad ready, who replaces all the lost talent?

Shaw, Saad, Kruger, Bickell and others stepped up, and suddenly we were an unstoppable powerhouse. It's possible. Crawford is probably 75% of it, the rest is up to our young guys.

- ObeseOprah



👀
Mr Ricochet
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Joliet, IL
Joined: 04.19.2009

Jul 9 @ 2:56 PM ET
Even with "bounce back" years from our CORE, I think we are a bubble team at best. Now is the time to start accumulating as many assets as we can. With Colliton (sp) now in Rockford, we have someone who can actually help in developing them.
- Revco38


And Crow is 100%, and 2 of Gus, Forsling, Ruuta, Manning, Murphy are legit 2nd rotation guys, and Dcat doesn't have a sophomore slump, and Hino fits, probably as the 1RW, and Schmaltz reasonably fits as a 2C, and they stay healthy on top of a rebound from Keith/Seabs/Toews/Saad. ...... Sure they have a chance but the percentages?

And yes yes and yes to the rest of your post.

Chunk
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Why did I move back here again?, IL
Joined: 11.06.2015

Jul 9 @ 2:57 PM ET
On defense who will make the bigger impact at camp - Boqvist, Jokiharju, Beaudin, other?
- DarthKane


I'm not sure exactly how much impact can be made at this camp, but my votes are:
Jokiharju, Mitchell and Hillman.

I know Hillman doesn't have the same skillset as the others, but he has been very sound defensively, and we need more of that on our back end. He's been known to be able to protect the crease as well.

L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:57 PM ET
AHH yes LBR, another who sits in her skybox looking at advanced stats so there is litle surprise you are another one who thinks this is Euro Ice no check mens league LOL. Never taken a body check along the boards or tried to get to the crease with a big nasty Dman in your face. He may be 200lbs soaking wet, but he is still soft and a perimeter player.
- EnzoD

Dude, all I did was point out facts - guys hasn't been near 180 since he was 19/20 and most of his shots come from in-close which doesn't happen if a player is always on the perimeter. These are objectively true. I didn't say anything else about him beyond that so you seem a little pressed about something. Maybe it would help you relax if you shifted your compensation issues to buying a sports car?
ObeseOprah
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 01.17.2014

Jul 9 @ 2:58 PM ET
https://theathletic.com/4...sooner-rather-than-later/

There's already articles saying that Panarin should be traded right now.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 9 @ 3:00 PM ET
Dude, all I did was point out facts - guys hasn't been near 180 since he was 19/20 and most of his shots come from in-close which doesn't happen if a player is always on the perimeter. These are objectively true. I didn't say anything else about him beyond that so you seem a little pressed about something. Maybe it would help you relax if you shifted your compensation issues to buying a sports car?
- L_B_R


LMAO you can make Richard jokes on here all day. The facts remain, how many smallish, soft, and skill forwards can one team have? It looks like Stan Bowman is trying to find out. BTW, I only jabbed back at your non-player status bc you've really been harping on the Richard size jokes lately. They are reallllly funny FYI I drive a Subaru Outback for the longevity, durability, 4WD for the mountains up here in Colorado, and tons of storage space. Really quality car, highly recommend.

L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 9 @ 3:03 PM ET


There's already articles saying that Panarin should be traded right now.

- ObeseOprah

If the Jackets are looking for a return of immediate impact players, now is probably better than in-season. Panarin is more likely to be injured than for the value to increase anymore. If they can find a team Panarin wants to sign with long-term, it's a win-win.

The quotes from his agent about 2-year deals vs long-term is why I think the Hawks got a similar message from Panarin.
RickJ
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Burlington, ON
Joined: 01.12.2010

Jul 9 @ 3:07 PM ET
+/- minus is not a stat I take any stock in so I don't care about that imo. Skinner def isn't great defensively, that's objectively true, though Peters entire line up the last few years has been playing a terrible defensive system so idk if his opinion is all that valid. Maybe he needed different personnel to run his system, though.

Skinner is a good offensive hockey player that is more of a topper on an already pretty good team than one in transition. Unless they get him and want to try to flip him, then I don't particularly want him. And flipping him would be hard because he has a NMC and has already been rejecting trades.

- L_B_R


You may not consider plus/minus a very important stat and I agree there are decidedly more relevant ones for individual players.
But when Duncan Keith posts a -29 and Ovi a -35 a few years ago and their teams miss the playoffs by 6 furlongs, its a pretty good indicator of something. And it isn't stellar play on their part negated by a sh$tty system put in place by a coach you don't like.
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 9 @ 3:12 PM ET
LMAO you can make Richard jokes on here all day. The facts remain, how many smallish, soft, and skill forwards can one team have? It looks like Stan Bowman is trying to find out. BTW, I only jabbed back at your non-player status bc you've really been harping on the Richard size jokes lately. They are reallllly funny FYI I drive a Subaru Outback for the longevity, durability, 4WD for the mountains up here in Colorado, and tons of storage space. Really quality car, highly recommend.


- EnzoD[img]

Lol you just outlined the ~rugged merits of your car - it's like you're softballing for the Richard jokes now. If you can't take a Richard joke, don't come across as a size queen in like 4 out of 5 posts. Vary it up a little lol.

And dude, I specifically said I wasn't advocating for / wanted Skinner, just was pointing out how objective wrong you were about two key points. Reading can be hard but come on now.
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