You may not consider plus/minus a very important stat and I agree there are decidedly more relevant ones for individual players.
But when Duncan Keith posts a -29 and Ovi a -35 a few years ago and their teams miss the playoffs by 6 furlongs, its a pretty good indicator of something. And it isn't stellar play on their part negated by a sh$tty system put in place by a coach you don't like.
- RickJ

It's an indicator that something is wrong at the team level but not on an individual level. Players who have more TOI on bad teams tend to have worse +/-.

OEL had a great season individually but was still a -28 this past season. His team is poopty, his +/- is going to be impacted, esp as he's a defender with high TOI.

Lol you just outlined the ~rugged merits of your car - it's like you're softballing for the Richard jokes now. If you can't take a Richard joke, don't come across as a size queen in like 4 out of 5 posts. Vary it up a little lol.

And dude, I specifically said I wasn't advocating for / wanted Skinner, just was pointing out how objective wrong you were about two key points. Reading can be hard but come on now.
- L_B_R

A Subaru Outback is a 4 cylinder hatchback/stationwagon with like 150HP soooooo once again you are way off base. Lady, it would benefit everyone if you would please move on from the Richard jokes. I know you think its funny, and impactful, but it is neither. And no amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that championship hockey teams have a balance of high end skill AND size/nastiness. No amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that you've never played full check hockey at any kind of high level (please correct me if you have), like Stanley Bowman, and thus it is not surprising to me that you base you analysis almost exclusively on advanced stats(which have a place and I appreciate your input there).


Bottom line, Hawks are far to easy to play against both on defense and forward. That doesn't make me a "size queen" (or "size king"?), just a hockey fan stating my opinion. Just a reminder that Patrick Kane is my favorite player for those trying to label me any other derogatory monikers.

It's an indicator that something is wrong at the team level but not on an individual level. Players who have more TOI on bad teams tend to have worse +/-.

OEL had a great season individually but was still a -28 this past season. His team is poopty, his +/- is going to be impacted, esp as he's a defender with high TOI.
- L_B_R

No reason to argue the merits of +/- further, its just a stat that has existed for years and is full of holes and inaccuracies. (OEL had a great season on a bad team and ends up -28 and Keith had a terrible season and ends up -29. Actually I don't think the Coyotes were that much worse a team than the Hawks. Wonder what would have happened if the 2 coaches switched teams?)

Development Camp roster

FORWARDS (20)
25 Barratt, Evan L 5’11” 182
67 Bondra, Radovan L 6’5” 222
14 Coughlin, Liam L 6’2” 202
16 Dahlstrom, John L 6’1” 187
84 Fortin, Alexandre L 6’1” 187
76 From, Mathias R 6’1” 161
15 Hakkarainen, Mikael L 6’0” 193
58 Kuffner, Ryan L 6’1” 185
54 Kurashev, Philipp L 5’11” 191
83 Maksimovich, Kyle L 5’9” 174
63 Moynihan, Connor L 6’4” 209
74 Nilsson, Jacob L 5’10” 174
73 Noel, Nathan R 5’10” 179
94 Nordgren, Niklas R 5’9” 169
48 Olofsson, Fredrik L 6’2” 200
85 Ramsey, Jack R 6’3” 191
23 Slavin, Josiah L 6’3” 189
64 Soderlund, Tim L 5’9” 163
59 Starrett, Beau L 6’5” 223
24 Wise, Jake L 5’10” 195

DEFENSEMEN (15)
34 Beaudin, Nicolas L 5’10” 172
26 Boqvist, Adam R 5’11” 165
47 Carlsson, Lucas L 6’0” 187
17 Ess, Joshua L 5’11” 180
42 Galvas, Jakub L 5’11” 162
53 Gilbert, Dennis L 6’1” 195
55 Hillman, Blake L 6’1” 180
28 Jokiharju, Henri R 6’1” 180
36 Krys, Chad L 5’11” 185
44 Laavainen, Roope R 6’1” 194
52 Massie, Jake L 6’1” 177
46 Mitchell, Ian R 5’11” 173
43 Ryczek, Jake R 5’10” 179
6 Shea, Ryan L 6’0” 175
5 Tuulola, Joni L 6’2” 180


GOALTENDERS (6)
70 Gravel, Alexis R 6’2” 222
30 Jones, Peyton L 6’2”
31 Marchand, Chase L 6’0” 180
40 Marshall, Linden L 6’3” 195
92 Peeters, Wouter L 6’4” 220
49 Robson, Mathew L 6’3” 194

BOLD is a Signed Hawks Player/Prospect.
- sofaking3

So who this year's wonderboy going to be?

I call dibs on Radovan Bondra.

A Subaru Outback is a 4 cylinder hatchback/stationwagon with like 150HP soooooo once again you are way off base. Lady, it would benefit everyone if you would please move on from the Richard jokes. I know you think its funny, and impactful, but it is neither. And no amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that championship hockey teams have a balance of high end skill AND size/nastiness. No amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that you've never played full check hockey at any kind of high level (please correct me if you have), like Stanley Bowman, and thus it is not surprising to me that you base you analysis almost exclusively on advanced stats(which have a place and I appreciate your input there).


Bottom line, Hawks are far to easy to play against both on defense and forward. That doesn't make me a "size queen" (or "size king"?), just a hockey fan stating my opinion. Just a remember that Patrick Kane is my favorite player for those trying to label me any other derogatory monikers.
- EnzoD

Enzo, if Stanbo signs Rocco Grimaldi I will drive out to Denver to visit you in that institution with the rubber walls you will be living in. I just don't know how he missed out on Tyler Ennis after the Wild bought him out.

A Subaru Outback is a 4 cylinder hatchback/stationwagon with like 150HP soooooo once again you are way off base. Lady, it would benefit everyone if you would please move on from the Richard jokes. I know you think its funny, and impactful, but it is neither. And no amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that championship hockey teams have a balance of high end skill AND size/nastiness. No amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that you've never played full check hockey at any kind of high level (please correct me if you have), like Stanley Bowman, and thus it is not surprising to me that you base you analysis almost exclusively on advanced stats(which have a place and I appreciate your input there).


Bottom line, Hawks are far to easy to play against both on defense and forward. That doesn't make me a "size queen" (or "size king"?), just a hockey fan stating my opinion. Just a remember that Patrick Kane is my favorite player for those trying to label me any other derogatory monikers.
- EnzoD

Agreed.

There is a place for both stats/numbers and the old gut feeling/eye test.

The part where I have a problem with stats is when people dump them on others and refuse to acknowledge the other persons point. It always comes off as very pompous and a way for them to seem like a better "student" of the game - the irony is that it makes them look small-minded.

Obviously numbers are important, but the bottom line is hockey is a physical game and having physicality on your side can be a great weapon/advantage - regardless of how the game is shifting.

I hate this trend/idea that has crept in and being championed by many "enlightened" fans, that suggesting you want your team to beef up a bit, is somehow now backwards thinking and makes you an unintelligent brute or caveman.

A Subaru Outback is a 4 cylinder hatchback/stationwagon with like 150HP soooooo once again you are way off base. Lady, it would benefit everyone if you would please move on from the Richard jokes. I know you think its funny, and impactful, but it is neither. And no amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that championship hockey teams have a balance of high end skill AND size/nastiness. No amount of Richard jokes will change the fact that you've never played full check hockey at any kind of high level (please correct me if you have), like Stanley Bowman, and thus it is not surprising to me that you base you analysis almost exclusively on advanced stats(which have a place and I appreciate your input there).


Bottom line, Hawks are far to easy to play against both on defense and forward. That doesn't make me a "size queen" (or "size king"?), just a hockey fan stating my opinion. Just a remember that Patrick Kane is my favorite player for those trying to label me any other derogatory monikers.
- EnzoD

Man, the way you described your car came across insecure about something js. If that's not how you intended, you need to work on your word choices. I also only do the jokes cause I get reactions like yours

And nah, I played hockey through high school until we moved to the south but there isn't hitting really, so idk personally about that kind of thing, no. But I'm also not claiming I'm an expert on the physicality level in NHL hockey like you seem to be, a man who also has never played in the NHL. The idea that someone had to have played hockey or gotten to a certain level to know or understand the game is elitist and often wrong af. Personally, I don't care if a fan played forever or had never even been on an ice rink - pretty much everyone can contribute to discussions and we can all learn from each other. I like getting to talk to the guys who have different experiences and such but that's just me.

I do think it's weird that you're a fan of Kane but really obsessed with size first and foremost atm. And it does come off as obsessed, joking aside, because you rarely talk about anything else when assessing a player or it's the first thing you mention. I only ever replied to you specifically cause you said something objectively false about size. I know you have other opinions on these players and I have even agreed with you on more than one occasion with you in the past. It's just one thing to think the Hawks could use some players with different qualities, including size, but it's weird to be so hyper focused. Do you not think it's a little weird?? It's why it's so easy to make the jokes.

I guess I'd like to go back to when you added more to the discussions because I did like reading your other thoughts, even when I didn't always agree. Not just you, general you - there are a few guys here who I used to like to read your thoughts, even if I didn't necessary fall in line with their thinking, that seem to be hyper focused instead of more open to other topics. It makes it kind of monotonous, don't you think?

Anyway, I totally think size has it's place, and the Hawks could use some of it their players, but there's more to a player than that and reducing them to their height/weight is a terrible way to go about building a team imo. The Hawks and Pens have been some of the smallest teams to win in the last 5-6 years so while I agree there needs to be a balance (something I've said more than once), focusing on big dudes for the sake of big dudes is pointless.

No reason to argue the merits of +/- further, its just a stat that has existed for years and is full of holes and inaccuracies. (OEL had a great season on a bad team and ends up -28 and Keith had a terrible season and ends up -29. Actually I don't think the Coyotes were that much worse a team than the Hawks. Wonder what would have happened if the 2 coaches switched teams?)
- RickJ

People complain about plus minus being a bad stat, but it is only bad if you ignore all the other factors. No stat should be looked at in isolation or without context.

The Hawks weren't quiet as bad as the Yotes, but I think they certainly played with different mentalities. OEL put up some points, but I'm not sure if he had a great season just based on my impression in the games I saw him play. I think he was "checked out" at times. I would love to see him play on a good team and see what he can do.

Agreed.

There is a place for both stats/numbers and the old gut feeling/eye test.

The part where I have a problem with stats is when people dump them on others and refuse to acknowledge the other persons point. It always comes off as very pompous and a way for them to seem like a better "student" of the game - the irony is that it makes them look small-minded.

Obviously numbers are important, but the bottom line is hockey is a physical game and having physicality on your side can be a great weapon/advantage - regardless of how the game is shifting.

I hate this trend/idea that has crept in and being championed by many "enlightened" fans, that suggesting you want your team to beef up a bit, is somehow now backwards thinking and makes you an unintelligent brute or caveman.
- Hank3Henshaw

I look at it this way in regard to stats.

They help you see the big picture and connect the dots on what you see on the ice. If you sit there and watch 82 games, you don't remember everything, you don't catch everything and everyone develops a bias based on some of the key things that stand out in their mind from their memory watching the game.

Stats don't tell you everything but they have their role. The "eye test" is more subjective and bias. We are human beings and I think you have to really take both hand in hand.

I look at it this way in regard to stats.

They help you see the big picture and connect the dots on what you see on the ice. If you sit there and watch 82 games, you don't remember everything, you don't catch everything and everyone develops a bias based on some of the key things that stand out in their mind from their memory watching the game.

Stats don't tell you everything but they have their role. The "eye test" is more subjective and bias. We are human beings and I think you have to really take both hand in hand.
- breadbag

Great points, my friend

It is hard to name many things that went right for the Hawks last year, but I don't think a bounce back is out of reach. They might not win the cup, but they can certainly have more things go right. Not saying all the things I'm mentioning will happen.

Goaltending - Obviously if CC able to start his 56-58 games as usual would be huge. He started 27 games last year and the team was 16-9-2 with him playing. Other goalies started 55 games for Chicago and those games the team record was 17-30-8. I think if CC was healthy, the Hawks could have stayed at least in the playoff conversation at least.

Schmaltz/Debrincat/Hinostroza/Hayden/Kampf (the list can go on) - The success of the team will largely be impacted by how much more role these guys can take. Schmaltz really started to play in all situations but that can continue further. It might be the difference in a handful of games.

Saad - He likely bounces back to ~50-55 points he was known for. I think he just struggled to finish. He is 25 and they should be able to get more out of him.

Toews - Contract aside, he is still matching against tough competition and driving possession. He didn't finish on his chances, but most of them were from the areas you want on the ice. I think if he is slotted with a playmaking winger, his production is close to his normal.

The team D needs to be a better effort. They need to get away from the scoring lines that give up just as much as they score and have a top to bottom defensive effort. They don't have the D depth to handle the run and gun track meet stuff like they used to. I recall Q admitting they are going to work on tightening up defensively.

The blueline - Along with the goaltending (without CC) it was the biggest weakness of this team, but one or two guys taking a step forward could help in a big way. I like that the Hawks have a lot of options and aren't banking on one or two guys. It will be fun to watch how it plays out.

Powerplay - they need to make some progress getting this working better. Too much Kane dancing around being chased to the outside and not enough shots through to the net. I really thought it worked better to have Toews/Kane/Gustafsson working the puck in that triangle they did until Toews got hurt. I really think they will go back to Toews down low on the right, Debrincat (guessing) on the left to shoot or slide back door.

The Hawks might blow it next year and injuries could really drag them down if they get the injury bug, but I can wait to see who is gonna make the team and where the surprises will be.

How did I become a Hawks fan? I was a hockey fan from a young age (playing/watching/entered my first playoff pool at age 5) and I really liked the stars for the Hawks back when I was around 10 years old. Guys like Roenick, Larmer, Chelios, Belfour. Add to that the awesome jersey and I quickly developed loyalty to the team as watched (or listened on radio online) or played NHL hockey in the glory days of the EA game series. I followed the team faithfully through the bad years (Chelios as a Red Wing still bothers me) and I try not to miss a game. (hard to do now with 3 young kids)

I've never been to the UC or the city of Chicago, but will always follow the team.
- breadbag

Y


Everything you stated is not only wishful thinking it's already proven .

Toews 3 consecutive years removed from winning the cup and I would even add that year he has drastically fell off the face the planet he has made excuses , it's clear he got his contract and he is in decline. I think it's fair to say he rode hossa coattails.


Hayden has a year and a half and it's clear he doesn't even belong in the NHL.

Hinostroza all speed but no real bite to his game.

Nobody will be traded because Stan is living in the past.

So who this year's wonderboy going to be?

I call dibs on Radovan Bondra.
- Beaver-Warrior

Personally, I thought the team had given up on Bondra already. I think for forwards, the standout might be Tim Soderlund (wild guess) and Boqvist on D.

Justin you asked how we became Hawks fan. For me it was the voice of Lloyd Pettit.

With the dilution of talent and the salary cap and teams just not willing to deal (see Ottawa and even Carolina to a certain extent for example) its kind of tough to get the players necessary to be a head of the pack.

I don't think they are completely bereft of talent and quite a few of their issues are related to forwards not being taught how to pursue the puck in the neutral zone, defenders yielding the blue line too easily, and transition up the ice.

Anyway you cut it, if Crow isn't healthy then this season is another burn year that should be focused on development. BUT if they stay relatively injury free and some guys have bounce back years then they may have a halfway decent season.

Blackhawk fan since birth in 1960.
Big Tony Esposito fan, remember his 15 shutout season.
Growing up in Springfield, was lucky to see as much as a line score in the newspaper. Mostly listened to Lloyd Petitt call games on WMAQ. Also, occasionally heard Dan Kelly call a game when the 'Hawks played in St Louis. (We did not even have the road games on tv for the longest time.) Do NOT like the St Louis team and never will. Most 'Hawk games I have seen have been in St Louis, it's amazing how many Blues fans cannot hold onto a beer and they accidentally spill it on you!)
Then, Marian Hossa came along. Head and tails, my all time favorite 'Hawk. Hall of Famer for his back checking skills alone. Period. (Like what I see from Schmaltz along those lines. Panarin too. Pretty sure DeBrincat has it in him too.)

I'm not sure exactly how much impact can be made at this camp, but my votes are:
Jokiharju, Mitchell and Hillman.

I know Hillman doesn't have the same skillset as the others, but he has been very sound defensively, and we need more of that on our back end. He's been known to be able to protect the crease as well.
- Chunk

Yes. It doesn't matter at this point if the player is big, small, right or left shot, physical or not, +skater or average just that he knows his position and is a good and competent hockey player.

The Hawks are a ways away from finding specific skills other than competency, especially at defense.

Man, the way you described your car came across insecure about something js. If that's not how you intended, you need to work on your word choices. I also only do the jokes cause I get reactions like yours

And nah, I played hockey through high school until we moved to the south but there isn't hitting really, so idk personally about that kind of thing, no. But I'm also not claiming I'm an expert on the physicality level in NHL hockey like you seem to be, a man who also has never played in the NHL. The idea that someone had to have played hockey or gotten to a certain level to know or understand the game is elitist and often wrong af. Personally, I don't care if a fan played forever or had never even been on an ice rink - pretty much everyone can contribute to discussions and we can all learn from each other. I like getting to talk to the guys who have different experiences and such but that's just me.

I do think it's weird that you're a fan of Kane but really obsessed with size first and foremost atm. And it does come off as obsessed, joking aside, because you rarely talk about anything else when assessing a player or it's the first thing you mention. I only ever replied to you specifically cause you said something objectively false about size. I know you have other opinions on these players and I have even agreed with you on more than one occasion with you in the past. It's just one thing to think the Hawks could use some players with different qualities, including size, but it's weird to be so hyper focused. Do you not think it's a little weird?? It's why it's so easy to make the jokes.

I guess I'd like to go back to when you added more to the discussions because I did like reading your other thoughts, even when I didn't always agree. Not just you, general you - there are a few guys here who I used to like to read your thoughts, even if I didn't necessary fall in line with their thinking, that seem to be hyper focused instead of more open to other topics. It makes it kind of monotonous, don't you think?

Anyway, I totally think size has it's place, and the Hawks could use some of it their players, but there's more to a player than that and reducing them to their height/weight is a terrible way to go about building a team imo. The Hawks and Pens have been some of the smallest teams to win in the last 5-6 years so while I agree there needs to be a balance (something I've said more than once), focusing on big dudes for the sake of big dudes is pointless.
- L_B_R

LBR - you are the Frasier Crane of this board

Personally, I thought the team had given up on Bondra already. I think for forwards, the standout might be Tim Soderlund (wild guess) and Boqvist on D.
- breadbag

I think you would get good odds in Vegas on Boqvist making the team for a cup of coffee before heading off To London.

Very enjoyable read. Makes me feel inadequate as a fan. ..... What kind of live hockey do you get to in Germany? Are you near any of these places where a favorite Jr player of mine, Freddy Tiffels (kid plays the game the right way), played? https://www.eliteprospect...er/85240/frederik-tiffels

Croatia the favorite for the World Cup?
- Mr Ricochet

Thx and unsuccessful times are part of it so I enjoyed every single bit since '92

I follow the German first league "DEL" quite a lot. My favorite team is called Duesseldorfer EG and I am rooting for them also since mid 90s. As I am living in Duesseldorf for 10 years now I follow as many games as possible. Compared to the NHL it often feels like Slo-Mo, but better then nothing And 11 mio bucks a star player is making in the NHL is like the budget for 4 seasons for my team here... BTW Mathis Olimb is going to play for Berlin next season and his brother Ken Andre will have his 2nd stint in Ddorf, really good player and fan favorite.

Freddi Tiffels played in Cologne and Krefeld. Pretty close to Ddorf and biggest rivals as they are each only a 30 minute car ride away from each other. There will be an outdoor game between Cologne and Ddorf as well on 9th of January. Freddis older brother, Dominik, will hit the ice for Cologne next season. Hawks former "Allstar" Lalonde played there as well till the end of last season.

I spend my summer of 1992 in Illinois and saw few games from Blackhawks plus the finals of course. Fell in love with Jeremy Roenick´s play and never looked back. It was nice to have Christian Ruuttu part of the Blackhawks too back in 90´s.

Started off as a Mite at Park Ridge (Northern Express) , since 5 years old watched the Hawks road games on TV with the Dad and Brother.

Funny. Same almost. A friend of my dad's asked him if he wanted to bring me to the learn to skate in Park Ridge and from there I was hooked. I then played mites when they still were the Park Ridge Hornets. The family use to go to Hawks games in the Stadium and I'll always remember how loud that place was. Electrifying. My favorite player was another #19 who played in North Dakota and won the Selke....Troy Murray. The whole family was hooked on hockey because I played. It was really fun. Had the pleasure of meeting Troy (again, this time as an adult) recently at a Blackhawks fundraiser. He couldn't have been nicer. We BS'd for about 45 minutes about how great the Stadium was, he told me a great story about watching a fight in the stands between North Stars fans and Hawks fans and I also got to tell him I have picture of him holding me when I was about 7 wearing his jersey. Pretty cool. Blackhawks hockey is in our family blood.

Dude, all I did was point out facts - guys hasn't been near 180 since he was 19/20 and most of his shots come from in-close which doesn't happen if a player is always on the perimeter. These are objectively true. I didn't say anything else about him beyond that so you seem a little pressed about something. Maybe it would help you relax if you shifted your compensation issues to buying a sports car?
- L_B_R

A much better look than say a 20 ft pickup with a 30 ft American flag, 7ft tires, an M-16 in the back window and info wars bumper stickers, no? You know the alpha male look.

I would too, but I doubt Winnipeg does.
- DarthKane

Hawks would have add more but dcat would the starting point forsling or another promising young d man and a 1st 2020

I think you would get good odds in Vegas on Boqvist making the team for a cup of coffee before heading off To London.
- Beaver-Warrior

Doesn't his ELC start if he even sniffs a game in the NHL this year? If so, would think he would have to be OUTSTANDING to want to burn a year on his ELC.

Y


Everything you stated is not only wishful thinking it's already proven .

Toews 3 consecutive years removed from winning the cup and I would even add that year he has drastically fell off the face the planet he has made excuses , it's clear he got his contract and he is in decline. I think it's fair to say he rode hossa coattails.

Hayden has a year and a half and it's clear he doesn't even belong in the NHL.

Hinostroza all speed but no real bite to his game.

Nobody will be traded because Stan is living in the past.
- Taylorst1

Everyone has their opinion. That fine. I was just saying some things "could" go right and they aren't unattainable.

Toews's decline is highly overblown IMO.

Hossa was great, but to say Toews "rode his coattails" is shortsighted to me. He has plenty of great moments in the NHL and internationally without Hossa on his line. What player isn't going to have their best years when playing with another good player? Like Kane/Panarin. Kane won a Hart because he had another top 10 offensive player on his other wing. How many goals would Ovie have if he didn't have Backstrom? Would Stamkos have hit his offensive levels without St Louis?

Hayden might never make it long term, but he has some potential. The guy can protect the puck and can be a screen. He doesn't project to be a superstar, but he could have a job in the NHL.

Hinostroza will never have bite, but not every player does. He is all about speed and he has some puck skills.

I don't expect these guys to be perfect, but they can play a role. They might flop, but the actual performance on the ice will tell. The Hawks season didn't exactly go their way last year in most areas.