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Forums :: Blog World :: Todd Cordell: Grading the Calgary Flames' off-season moves
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Allforhim12
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Edmonton, AB
Joined: 08.26.2013

Aug 10 @ 3:33 PM ET
Different situation , its hard to put up points when you have no goaltending . He will have more of an offensive opportunity in Calgary , and as you see him play you will see what I mean , he is fantastic already and will be even more so .
Allforhim12
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Edmonton, AB
Joined: 08.26.2013

Aug 10 @ 3:39 PM ET
Then let them walk, these are not all "spare parts" players. Bennett has not had a decent set of linemates in his career, Brodie has shown the ability to play well when he's on the right side of the pairing (he and Gio were a top pairing in the NHL in their time together), and Stone is a more than serviceable 4/5 guy. He's probably the "spare part" in the deal, but is one that Ottawa could conceivably leverage in trying to re-sign his brother (though this is tenuous IMO)
- rmull905

You don’t walk on that trade no way .Karlsson makes you a contender immediately in that trade .I would be falling all over myself to do that .
Reveen.
Edmonton Oilers
Location: BC
Joined: 09.05.2016

Aug 10 @ 3:55 PM ET
Then let them. Bennett is by all accounts still a hot commodity, Brodie is still very much capable of putting together a fantastic season if given a chance on the right side, and Stone is a completely fine bottom pairing guy who can play top 4 if you need him to.

If Ottawa wants to walk away from that then let them. They are the ones under pressure to trade Karlsson. Literally every other team in the League can sit back and try their luck on July 1st next year.

- Helios


Hotter than Jeff Skinner
Yeah...Baby
Calgary Flames
Location: Calgary , AB
Joined: 01.29.2015

Aug 10 @ 4:17 PM ET
It's not my idea and lets see what happens when EK does get traded. I dont mind the players leaving but the 2 first round picks would suck. Maybe that is Ottawa's ask?
- zipfel


Who's your source?

K-man25
Calgary Flames
Location: K Town
Joined: 09.02.2014

Aug 10 @ 4:55 PM ET
Who's your source?
- Yeah...Baby

His momma!
zipfel
Calgary Flames
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 04.24.2016

Aug 10 @ 4:59 PM ET
Who's your source?
- Yeah...Baby


I don't want to sound like I've got this magical inside source because I don't. But, I heard it from a reliable place and it could be accurate and might not be. I wanted to share it here regardless because why the (frank) not. And it would be awesome if we got EK
VeryModernMan
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Munich
Joined: 06.06.2017

Aug 10 @ 5:12 PM ET
I don't want to sound like I've got this magical inside source
- zipfel


Did you know that your username "zipfel" is used for a male's part in Germany and especially around Munich-area?
zipfel
Calgary Flames
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 04.24.2016

Aug 10 @ 5:38 PM ET
Did you know that your username "zipfel" is used for a male's part in Germany and especially around Munich-area?
- VeryModernMan


yea im aware.
rmull905
Calgary Flames
Joined: 02.27.2007

Aug 10 @ 5:54 PM ET
You don’t walk on that trade no way .Karlsson makes you a contender immediately in that trade .I would be falling all over myself to do that .
- Allforhim12


So you're moving Klefbom, Puljujaarvi, Nurse/Sekera and 2 firsts for Karlsson?

I would walk, and here's why:

1) Our farm system is already thin
2) We had no 1st, 2nd or 3rd last year
3) Ottawa, stupidly, held onto the 4th overall this year knowing that they are likely to be contending for #1 overall next year (Hughes, a franchise player). They are desperate for picks at this point
4) Brodie instantly steps into their top pairing
5) Bennett at the very least is a top 6 winger on that team and we are expecting him to develop into a top 6 here
6) Karlsson's price in terms of return drops the further into the season you get. Getting an elite guy for 20-30 games at the end of the regular season is historically cheaper than acquiring a guy for a full season
7) There is no guarantee he signs here next year. If he does walk, you spent the next 5 years of your franchise on 1 playoff run.

If lottery protected, I would include a 2020 1st.
If he agreed to extend, I'd be willing to throw in more.
Helios
Calgary Flames
Location: AB
Joined: 08.11.2016

Aug 10 @ 7:02 PM ET
So you're moving Klefbom, Puljujaarvi, Nurse/Sekera and 2 firsts for Karlsson?

I would walk, and here's why:

1) Our farm system is already thin
2) We had no 1st, 2nd or 3rd last year
3) Ottawa, stupidly, held onto the 4th overall this year knowing that they are likely to be contending for #1 overall next year (Hughes, a franchise player). They are desperate for picks at this point
4) Brodie instantly steps into their top pairing
5) Bennett at the very least is a top 6 winger on that team and we are expecting him to develop into a top 6 here
6) Karlsson's price in terms of return drops the further into the season you get. Getting an elite guy for 20-30 games at the end of the regular season is historically cheaper than acquiring a guy for a full season
7) There is no guarantee he signs here next year. If he does walk, you spent the next 5 years of your franchise on 1 playoff run.

If lottery protected, I would include a 2020 1st.
If he agreed to extend, I'd be willing to throw in more.

- rmull905


If he either extended with Ottawa before the trade OR we had permission to talk to Karlsson before the trade to work something out, then sure, but I still think I'd only give up one first rounder. Calgary isn't exactly loaded with top end prospects right now and we need our picks.

Besides, like I said, Ottawa HAS to trade Karlsson, we don't absolutely need him. Sure, I'd love to have him on my team, but is he a must have piece for the Flames? No. Our blue line is already fine.

If I'm Ottawa, I'm doing Bennett, Brodie, Stone and a 1st for Karlsson. If I'm Calgary, I'm doing that IF there's an extension attached, or we get word he will extend with us. If there's no extension, there's no way in Hell I'm giving up significant parts of our future for 1 playoff run.

Ottawa is the team in a bind, not Calgary.
Hunkulese
Calgary Flames
Location: QC
Joined: 09.30.2006

Aug 10 @ 8:01 PM ET
So you're moving Klefbom, Puljujaarvi, Nurse/Sekera and 2 firsts for Karlsson?

I would walk, and here's why:

1) Our farm system is already thin
2) We had no 1st, 2nd or 3rd last year
3) Ottawa, stupidly, held onto the 4th overall this year knowing that they are likely to be contending for #1 overall next year (Hughes, a franchise player). They are desperate for picks at this point
4) Brodie instantly steps into their top pairing
5) Bennett at the very least is a top 6 winger on that team and we are expecting him to develop into a top 6 here
6) Karlsson's price in terms of return drops the further into the season you get. Getting an elite guy for 20-30 games at the end of the regular season is historically cheaper than acquiring a guy for a full season
7) There is no guarantee he signs here next year. If he does walk, you spent the next 5 years of your franchise on 1 playoff run.

If lottery protected, I would include a 2020 1st.
If he agreed to extend, I'd be willing to throw in more.

- rmull905


First off, the Edmonton comparison doesn't hold up at all. Klefbom and Nurse are their top two defenders, both younger than Brodie, and both trending up.

Second, have you actually thought through the trade rumour at all? The Flames would basically be trading Bennett's potential and a couple lottery picks to get the best defenceman most of us have ever watched live. Brodie, Bennett, and Stone haven't been all that great the last few years. Karlsson is a ridiculous upgrade over Brodie, and Andersson or Valimaki are probably a significant upgrade over Stone. Karlsson had a down year last year, was playing through a pretty significant injury, was dealing with a pregnant wife, had to deal with losing a child, and the off ice nonsense with Hoffman, and still had more points per game than anyone on the Flames taller who's than 5' 4".

Losing Bennett would suck, but the Flames already significantly upgraded their forwards and they have a couple guys who could probably earn a spot if a spot was there to be earned.

The Flames would be trading three pieces that didn't have much of a positive impact on the team last year for a potential Hart trophy winner.

People put too much value in picks. As it stands now, their first-round pick next year will probably be somewhere in the 20s, even lower if they have Karlsson.

Lastly, his rumour stated that it was contingent on Karlsson resigning before the trade happened so your last three points are moot.
rmull905
Calgary Flames
Joined: 02.27.2007

Aug 10 @ 9:59 PM ET
First off, the Edmonton comparison doesn't hold up at all. Klefbom and Nurse are their top two defenders, both younger than Brodie, and both trending up.

Second, have you actually thought through the trade rumour at all? The Flames would basically be trading Bennett's potential and a couple lottery picks to get the best defenceman most of us have ever watched live. Brodie, Bennett, and Stone haven't been all that great the last few years. Karlsson is a ridiculous upgrade over Brodie, and Andersson or Valimaki are probably a significant upgrade over Stone. Karlsson had a down year last year, was playing through a pretty significant injury, was dealing with a pregnant wife, had to deal with losing a child, and the off ice nonsense with Hoffman, and still had more points per game than anyone on the Flames taller who's than 5' 4".

Losing Bennett would suck, but the Flames already significantly upgraded their forwards and they have a couple guys who could probably earn a spot if a spot was there to be earned.

The Flames would be trading three pieces that didn't have much of a positive impact on the team last year for a potential Hart trophy winner.

People put too much value in picks. As it stands now, their first-round pick next year will probably be somewhere in the 20s, even lower if they have Karlsson.

Lastly, his rumour stated that it was contingent on Karlsson resigning before the trade happened so your last three points are moot.

- Hunkulese


Yeah, you got me on a couple of points there (Nurse and the extension). Pull Nurse out and put in Sekera (Nurse actually had a much better year than I thought last year)
Klefbom is arguably a downgrade on a Brodie in a down year, at least statistically.

Erik Karlsson is a very effective and dynamic offensive defenceman. He is unquestionably an absolute elite force at the NHL level and a franchise Dman.

That said, it's hyperbole to say he's the best defenceman we've seen live. Lidstrom was better, hard to argue that guys in their prime like Weber, Pronger, Keith, Chara weren't better all around defencemen that could still produce offensively at an elite level.

Pronger - traded for Lupul, Smid, 2 1sts and a 2nd. Might be the best comp out there for trade and all of a sudden, I feel a lot less nervous for some reason.

Hunk - I think you've brought me around a bit on this one
Hunkulese
Calgary Flames
Location: QC
Joined: 09.30.2006

Aug 10 @ 10:25 PM ET

That said, it's hyperbole to say he's the best defenceman we've seen live. Lidstrom was better, hard to argue that guys in their prime like Weber, Pronger, Keith, Chara weren't better all around defencemen that could still produce offensively at an elite level.

- rmull905


I don't think it's much of a hyperbole. Karlsson in the 2016 playoffs was the best defenseman I've ever seen play the game of hockey.
rmull905
Calgary Flames
Joined: 02.27.2007

Aug 10 @ 10:40 PM ET
I don't think it's much of a hyperbole. Karlsson in the 2016 playoffs was the best defenseman I've ever seen play the game of hockey.
- Hunkulese


I think he's great, no doubt. Would take Lidstrom in his prime in a heartbeat though.
Redmile247
Calgary Flames
Joined: 03.17.2013

Aug 11 @ 1:22 AM ET
Oh for sure. He has the ability to reach the level of Hamilton, no question. I highly doubt he'll be better than Hamilton, though.
- PepinoPamplemousse


I highly doubt Hamilton has gio as a partner anymore ....could be interesting out there

Playing in the east I predict 80 points but a -56 for Hamilton
Redmile247
Calgary Flames
Joined: 03.17.2013

Aug 11 @ 1:24 AM ET
First off, the Edmonton comparison doesn't hold up at all. Klefbom and Nurse are their top two defenders, both younger than Brodie, and both trending up.

Second, have you actually thought through the trade rumour at all? The Flames would basically be trading Bennett's potential and a couple lottery picks to get the best defenceman most of us have ever watched live. Brodie, Bennett, and Stone haven't been all that great the last few years. Karlsson is a ridiculous upgrade over Brodie, and Andersson or Valimaki are probably a significant upgrade over Stone. Karlsson had a down year last year, was playing through a pretty significant injury, was dealing with a pregnant wife, had to deal with losing a child, and the off ice nonsense with Hoffman, and still had more points per game than anyone on the Flames taller who's than 5' 4".

Losing Bennett would suck, but the Flames already significantly upgraded their forwards and they have a couple guys who could probably earn a spot if a spot was there to be earned.

The Flames would be trading three pieces that didn't have much of a positive impact on the team last year for a potential Hart trophy winner.

People put too much value in picks. As it stands now, their first-round pick next year will probably be somewhere in the 20s, even lower if they have Karlsson.

Lastly, his rumour stated that it was contingent on Karlsson resigning before the trade happened so your last three points are moot.

- Hunkulese


I agree with this
Hunkulese
Calgary Flames
Location: QC
Joined: 09.30.2006

Aug 11 @ 2:23 AM ET
I highly doubt Hamilton has gio as a partner anymore ....could be interesting out there

Playing in the east I predict 80 points but a -56 for Hamilton

- Redmile247


I don't know who he's going to be paired with, but Slavin is ridiculously good and may fit even better with Hamilton than Gio did. Maybe they want to keep Slavin and Pesce together, but De Haan is no slouch either. Hamilton's going to have a solid partner regardless.
Aerchon
Joined: 10.14.2011

Aug 11 @ 9:35 AM ET
I agree with all your assessments but your grades are all a full letter higher than they should be. A and B instead of B and C.

Calgary short term and likely long term has downgraded thier defense but improved thier offense. An overall improvement to be sure but only slightly so barring some pleasant surprises.

On the flip side you could easily argue they got worse slightly overall and with bad luck could be significantly worse moving forward.
Misterbator
Calgary Flames
Location: Monkeytown, NB
Joined: 10.13.2014

Aug 11 @ 11:47 AM ET
I agree with all your assessments but your grades are all a full letter higher than they should be. A and B instead of B and C.

Calgary short term and likely long term has downgraded thier defense but improved thier offense. An overall improvement to be sure but only slightly so barring some pleasant surprises.

On the flip side you could easily argue they got worse slightly overall and with bad luck could be significantly worse moving forward.

- Aerchon


You could argue that the Flames are worse, but you'd be wrong in doing so because Troy Brouwer is finally gone. That subtraction alone destroys your potential argument.
Kevin R
Calgary Flames
Location: E5 = It aint gonna happen.
Joined: 02.10.2010

Aug 11 @ 11:57 AM ET
Hotter than Jeff Skinner
- Reveen.

Cant compare Bennett & Skinner. One is a 1 year rental basically, UFA end of year & the other makes less than half the salary, 22-23 years old & still a RFA. Makes a big difference. Still thought Carolina undersold on him, who knows whats going on behind the scene & the need for Carolina to move Skinner now. They would have got just as good return at the TDL. & they certainly didnt need the cap space.
Kevin R
Calgary Flames
Location: E5 = It aint gonna happen.
Joined: 02.10.2010

Aug 11 @ 12:07 PM ET
I agree with all your assessments but your grades are all a full letter higher than they should be. A and B instead of B and C.

Calgary short term and likely long term has downgraded thier defense but improved thier offense. An overall improvement to be sure but only slightly so barring some pleasant surprises.

On the flip side you could easily argue they got worse slightly overall and with bad luck could be significantly worse moving forward.

- Aerchon

Huh???? We have guys that were playing on 2nd & 3rd lines last year that will be on the 4th line. The balance of the forward lines is significantly upgraded better than I have seen in years. Our blueline couldnt have performed worse last year. Coaching will make a huge difference & of the games I went to last year I would say one, maybe two games Hamilton dominated the games & was that noticeable. I guess the proof is in our record last year.
Redmile247
Calgary Flames
Joined: 03.17.2013

Aug 11 @ 12:13 PM ET
Huh???? We have guys that were playing on 2nd & 3rd lines last year that will be on the 4th line. The balance of the forward lines is significantly upgraded better than I have seen in years. Our blueline couldnt have performed worse last year. Coaching will make a huge difference & of the games I went to last year I would say one, maybe two games Hamilton dominated the games & was that noticeable. I guess the proof is in our record last year.
- Kevin R


Fans of other teams aren’t wrong to say we could end up worse with the two from Carolina ..it could happen and we would be blind to not acknowledge that

Do I think it will happen ...no ...but all the flames fans who won’t even acknowledge the possibility could be in for a rude awakening
Helios
Calgary Flames
Location: AB
Joined: 08.11.2016

Aug 11 @ 1:00 PM ET
Fans of other teams aren’t wrong to say we could end up worse with the two from Carolina ..it could happen and we would be blind to not acknowledge that

Do I think it will happen ...no ...but all the flames fans who won’t even acknowledge the possibility could be in for a rude awakening

- Redmile247


That's true for the short term, absolutely. We could end up worse off and I'm fully prepared for that. Don't think it will happen, but it might.
Kevin R
Calgary Flames
Location: E5 = It aint gonna happen.
Joined: 02.10.2010

Aug 11 @ 1:01 PM ET
Fans of other teams aren’t wrong to say we could end up worse with the two from Carolina ..it could happen and we would be blind to not acknowledge that

Do I think it will happen ...no ...but all the flames fans who won’t even acknowledge the possibility could be in for a rude awakening

- Redmile247

Yeah & McDavid may only have an 80 point season next year, could happen, but not really likely. Whats your point? All analytics & stats lead one to expect progression from players that are 21 & 23 respectively & were talented enough to be scouted & drafted in the top 5 of their respective NHL draft years. What are we arguing here?

One thing I do know, Fox would not sign in Calgary & we basically would be stuck with a compensatory pick in June draft of 2020. We miss out on 1 more year of Ferland because you know Treliving was not going to back the wheel barrel full of money up to him next year. Certainly not going to trade him at the TDL next year unless you think we will be rebuilding & in the hunt for Hughes. So there's another asset that walks for virtually nothing. Personally, I am shocked that both these kids were available in a trade given Carolina is certainly not about to start a rebuild, they are players you rebuild with.
Yeah...Baby
Calgary Flames
Location: Calgary , AB
Joined: 01.29.2015

Aug 11 @ 1:25 PM ET
Yeah & McDavid may only have an 80 point season next year, could happen, but not really likely. Whats your point? All analytics & stats lead one to expect progression from players that are 21 & 23 respectively & were talented enough to be scouted & drafted in the top 5 of their respective NHL draft years. What are we arguing here?

One thing I do know, Fox would not sign in Calgary & we basically would be stuck with a compensatory pick in June draft of 2020. We miss out on 1 more year of Ferland because you know Treliving was not going to back the wheel barrel full of money up to him next year. Certainly not going to trade him at the TDL next year unless you think we will be rebuilding & in the hunt for Hughes. So there's another asset that walks for virtually nothing. Personally, I am shocked that both these kids were available in a trade given Carolina is certainly not about to start a rebuild, they are players you rebuild with.

- Kevin R


Completely agree with everything you just said!
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