Ryan Wilson: What if Phil... keeps saying no? What if Phil... keeps saying no?

Then there's a sh!tty dynamic added to the locker room.

Fire JR now.

Out of all this commotion, we seem to have skipped one seriously huge positive: JJ is on the table. Who knows if this is only tied to Phil or regardless they will attempt to move him.

Kessel for Leddy. Don't @ me.

From the previous thread...

I want Trouba but the assets you give up and the fact he is looking for well above his value in AAV makes him not worth it.

I know it's stupid, but part of me would be interested in looking at a Byfuglein trade. Only two years left on his contract but not sure his legs are good enough anymore. I have just always enjoyed him as a player.
- MacPatty

If WPG would do the similar projected NSH trade, sending Phil and Schultz (who can be a stop-gap replacement for Trouba) for Trouba I would do it. The Pens would free up roughly $3M and could really go out and get a big fish in FA.

Considering how into analytics this board usually is, I'm surprised how few look beyond points when it comes to Phil.

Over the 2 years prior to last, Zucker had a 59% xGF, was top 15 in the league in goals and primary points in the league, and second in 5v5 goal differential to McDavid. Then this year the team shot 6% when he was on the ice this year, that probably won't happen again.

Zucker is really good 5v5. Phil has been break even for 3 years because his defense negates all his offense.

https://www-hockeywildern...-free-agency-trade-rumors
- Tojo.

I get this for sure. I am usually on the side of 5v5 numbers are more valuable BUT I think that Kessel's total value (elite PP value + his even strength value) outweighs Zucker's total value. I saw Sean Tierney's GAR/WAR post as well, definitely thought invoking for sure.

No way the Pens get reasonable value out of any trade for Phil. Once it’s done and it will be done, the narrative will be that the trade is addition by subtraction. Not a good look.

I think it would be almost impossible to get a fair value in return for any Kessel trade, even without the eight team exceptions to his NTC. With that in mind I do not think the Pens should trade him. When they traded for him years back they knew what they were getting contract-wise.

If the Pens keep him, which I think is most likely (unless Rutherford is more insane than I give him credit for being), one of two things will happen:

- Malkin shows up next season with a better attitude and Kessel shows up more in shape. The two click better and the second line becomes a very good again.
- Kessel is tried on both the first line with Crosby and Guentzel or on the third line.

Regarding JJ, I think the best approach would be to give the top two pairings more ice time, thereby reducing JJ's. He is a bad, washed up defenseman but I think his effectiveness increases as his ice time decreases.

Sorry, but why would you want to move a guy that is just coming off a 82 point year and a 92 the year before? I get the cap space thing, but he only has 2 years left at a 6.8 hit... Just flip him for some picks / prospects in 21/22 at the deadline.

Kessel for Nylander. Toronto would implode

Then we should just keep Phil. He's liked here. And one of the few things that RW said that I happen to agree with is the onus should be on Sully to make this work, or HE goes.
But as I've pushed (as have a few others) for larger change for the sake of the culture of this team, I have to be willing to admit Phil could be at the core of the issues in the locker room, if there are such issues.
I love this team, but maybe this group has won enough already, and the desire is just not there. It sure looked that way IMHO against the Isles.

Sorry, but why would you want to move a guy that is just coming off a 82 point year and a 92 the year before? I get the cap space thing, but he only has 2 years left at a 6.8 hit... Just flip him for some picks / prospects in 21/22 at the deadline.
- cuethenoise

While I think there are some locker room issues with Kessel and other, I would agree with keeping him and flipping him at this year's (2020) deadline or next (2021). If the culture issue persist trade him mid-season. If not see what his value is at the deadline, but he puts up points, no matter how out of shape he is.

Sorry, but why would you want to move a guy that is just coming off a 82 point year and a 92 the year before? I get the cap space thing, but he only has 2 years left at a 6.8 hit... Just flip him for some picks / prospects in 21/22 at the deadline.
- cuethenoise

We don’t. Our GM and coach do.

I think it would be almost impossible to get a fair value in return for any Kessel trade, even without the eight team exceptions to his NTC. With that in mind I do not think the Pens should trade him. When they traded for him years back they knew what they were getting contract-wise.

If the Pens keep him, which I think is most likely (unless Rutherford is more insane than I give him credit for being), one of two things will happen:

- Malkin shows up next season with a better attitude and Kessel shows up more in shape. The two click better and the second line becomes a very good again.
- Kessel is tried on both the first line with Crosby and Guentzel or on the third line.

Regarding JJ, I think the best approach would be to give the top two pairings more ice time, thereby reducing JJ's. He is a bad, washed up defenseman but I think his effectiveness increases as his ice time decreases.
- PghPens668771

So if the Pens keep Kessel, he'll either end up playing on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line???

I have to say I agree.

I think it would be almost impossible to get a fair value in return for any Kessel trade, even without the eight team exceptions to his NTC. With that in mind I do not think the Pens should trade him. When they traded for him years back they knew what they were getting contract-wise.

If the Pens keep him, which I think is most likely (unless Rutherford is more insane than I give him credit for being), one of two things will happen:

- Malkin shows up next season with a better attitude and Kessel shows up more in shape. The two click better and the second line becomes a very good again.
- Kessel is tried on both the first line with Crosby and Guentzel or on the third line.

Regarding JJ, I think the best approach would be to give the top two pairings more ice time, thereby reducing JJ's. He is a bad, washed up defenseman but I think his effectiveness increases as his ice time decreases.
- PghPens668771

More in shape? lol who gives a poop what he looks like if he's putting up 80 points a year. haha Also it's likely more difficult for him to shed body fat given that he's lost a ball or two due to cancer.

Then we should just keep Phil. He's liked here. And one of the few things that RW said that I happen to agree with is the onus should be on Sully to make this work, or HE goes.
But as I've pushed (as have a few others) for larger change for the sake of the culture of this team, I have to be willing to admit Phil could be at the core of the issues in the locker room, if there are such issues.
I love this team, but maybe this group has won enough already, and the desire is just not there. It sure looked that way IMHO against the Isles.
- Cousinskrid

I dunno, I don't buy that poop. These guys are playing to win their entire life, I don't think the desire ever leaves. Maybe for a some that are trying to get paid, but I think the majority are about winning until they hang em up.

Sorry, but why would you want to move a guy that is just coming off a 82 point year and a 92 the year before? I get the cap space thing, but he only has 2 years left at a 6.8 hit... Just flip him for some picks / prospects in 21/22 at the deadline.
- cuethenoise

Our GM went senile. Most fans don't want to move him.

I dunno, I don't buy that poop. These guys are playing to win their entire life, I don't think the desire ever leaves. Maybe for a some that are trying to get paid, but I think the majority are about winning until they hang em up.
- j.boyd919

https://pittsburghhockeyn...penguins-and-johnson-too/

Want to know why Trotz's teams are successful? Everyone buys in

Right now the Pens have 3 players that refuse to buy in - Kessel and Letang (and sometimes Malkin)

Guys like that are toxic. Regardless of talent, you can't have guys on the team that refuse to be coached. It undermines everything everyone else is doing. It's why less talented teams always find a way to beat the Penguins

You can get away with having 1 guy like that, because the team can peer pressure that 1 player or the coach can send a message by sitting him, that guy is going to be Malkin, he stays. You can't have 3.... It doesn't work

Anybody have any guesses as to what 8 teams Kessel put on his trade list?

If he really likes it in Pittsburgh and doesn't want to move, I would guess the other 7 teams in the Metro, plus a cash strapped team like either Toronto, Vegas or Tampa Bay.

If he wants to move, maybe he would select teams in states with no income tax like Florida, Tampa Bay, Nashville, Dallas and Vegas to name 5 and teams that figure to be Cup contenders the next couple of years like Boston, St. Louis, Colorado, Carolina.

Want to know why Trotz's teams are successful? Everyone buys in

Right now the Pens have 3 players that refuse to buy in - Kessel and Letang (and sometimes Malkin)

Guys like that are toxic. Regardless of talent, you can't have guys on the team that refuse to be coached. It undermines everything everyone else is doing. It's why less talented teams always find a way to beat the Penguins

You can get away with having 1 guy like that, because the team can peer pressure that 1 player or the coach can send a message by sitting him, that guy is going to be Malkin, he stays. You can't have 3.... It doesn't work
- RoloTahmasee

Letang is the second hardest worker on the team behind Sid. This is bullpoop.

https://pittsburghhockeynow.com/phil-kessel-trade-rumors-pittsburgh-penguins-and-johnson-too/
- Fountain-San

What am I looking for here?

Want to know why Trotz's teams are successful? Everyone buys in

Right now the Pens have 3 players that refuse to buy in - Kessel and Letang (and sometimes Malkin)

Guys like that are toxic. Regardless of talent, you can't have guys on the team that refuse to be coached. It undermines everything everyone else is doing. It's why less talented teams always find a way to beat the Penguins

You can get away with having 1 guy like that, because the team can peer pressure that 1 player or the coach can send a message by sitting him, that guy is going to be Malkin, he stays. You can't have 3.... It doesn't work
- RoloTahmasee

This is a garbage post if I’ve ever seen one.

Anybody have any guesses as to what 8 teams Kessel put on his trade list?

If he really likes it in Pittsburgh and doesn't want to move, I would guess the other 7 teams in the Metro, plus a cash strapped team like either Toronto, Vegas or Tampa Bay.

If he wants to move, maybe he would select teams in states with no income tax like Florida, Tampa Bay, Nashville, Dallas and Vegas to name 5 and teams that figure to be Cup contenders the next couple of years like Boston, St. Louis, Colorado, Carolina.
- boilermaker100

Just a guess, but: