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Forums :: Blog World :: Tyler Cameron: What I really think of the Jokiharju / Nylander trade
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Charlie Conway
Buffalo Sabres
Joined: 12.28.2006

Jul 10 @ 11:12 PM ET
Nylander couldn't crack the mighty Buffalo Sabres lineup, not sure why with all that skill. 3 years in AHL (yes had injury in year 2), he''s toast.

Tyler Cameron: What I really think of the Jokiharju / Nylander trade
Where do I sit with my emotions now that I've had time to think?

Well, still mildly perplexed, mixed with a little resentment.

Let's first separate the player Henri Jokiharju, then evaluate the trade as a whole.

- Tyler Cameron

EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:13 PM ET
Wanted to say one last time, good luck to Nylander

It's been great talking to some of you knowledgeable Hawks fans for some fun and respectful commentary in the sabres thread

And if you guys still want to do Pekar and a pick for Anisimov for a pick, I'm in

Cheers, guys

- jcragcrumple


What the Sabres really need is a veteran presence on Defense in Brent Seabrook
mrpaulish
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Itasca, IL
Joined: 01.18.2010

Jul 10 @ 11:14 PM ET
Corpse?
- kaptaan



dead d crew
jcragcrumple
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Reluctant bridge jumper; 6th round OHL draft pick, YT
Joined: 04.04.2016

Jul 10 @ 11:19 PM ET
What the Sabres really need is a veteran presence on Defense in Brent Seabrook
- EnzoD


We have our own Seabrook and his name is Kyle Okposo
BetweenTheDots
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: IL
Joined: 06.13.2015

Jul 10 @ 11:19 PM ET
I'm in this boat.

The Hawks are showing confidence in Mitchell with a move like this.

Also, wouldn't it make sense that the Hawks signed 2x veteran defence LHD in de Haan and Maatta (to go along with Keith) to be able to insert both Boqvist and/or Mitchell on the right-side when they are ready?

- Tyler Cameron


But Mitchell has no contract? So we really can't even consider he's part of the Hawks future. It seems to me as soon as a player is unhappy or challenging the FO they quickly trade them away.
jcragcrumple
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Reluctant bridge jumper; 6th round OHL draft pick, YT
Joined: 04.04.2016

Jul 10 @ 11:23 PM ET
Nylander couldn't crack the mighty Buffalo Sabres lineup, not sure why with all that skill. 3 years in AHL (yes had injury in year 2), he''s toast.
- Charlie Conway


He, by my eye and from several others, beat out Tage Thompson for a winger spot on the 18-19 Sabres. He was doing great in the preseason. In the final preseason game, he basically shat the bed and it gave cover for Botterill to send him to Rochester so he could keep Tage Thompson who he had just acquired in the ROR trade. Once demoted, he basically only showed up when he wanted to.

If the Hawks can get him motivated, keep him motivated and get him to buy into a system, you could have something

That's my Tage Thompson/Nylander conspiracy theory anyway
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:26 PM ET
I want to offer up a different perspective on the forward pipeline arguing that the Blackhawks have more winger depth than center depth.

The caveat is that while some of the prospects may be able to play center in juniors, college, Europe, or the minors, some if not most will likely be wingers if they ever make it to the NHL. So the following is where each would likely project to play at the NHL level.

ROCKFORD
Centers: Hakkarainen, Johnson, Nilsson, Quenneville
Wingers: Entwistle, Hagel, Highmore, Kurashev, Saarela (Aleksi), Soderlund, Wedin

EUROPE
Centers: none
Wingers: Nordgren, Saarela (Antti)

KHL
Centers: none
Wingers: Altybarmakyan, Kayumov, Shalunov

NCAA
Centers: Wise
Wingers: Barratt, Foo, Slavin

JUNIORS
Centers: Dach (if he doesn't make the Hawks)
Wingers: Teply

Dach is the only top 6 center in the pipeline. Wise is middle 6 while the rest are 4Cs with Quenneville possibly topping out as a 3C.

- AEL_Fox

Jfyi Luke Johnson who was a center was not qualified by the Hawks; the other Johnson in then system, Reese, was signed as a FA recently is a RW.

I'm also doubtful Quenneville would be a center since I thought he played more wing in the AHL. Could be wrong there though.
PatShart
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Vegas, NV
Joined: 06.25.2015

Jul 10 @ 11:27 PM ET
Nylander couldn't crack the mighty Buffalo Sabres lineup, not sure why with all that skill. 3 years in AHL (yes had injury in year 2), he''s toast.
- Charlie Conway


Joki couldn't crack the band of D the Hawks threw out there last year sooooo...
Charlie Conway
Buffalo Sabres
Joined: 12.28.2006

Jul 10 @ 11:33 PM ET
Joki couldn't crack the band of D the Hawks threw out there last year sooooo...
- PatShart

He was first guy sent down after injury return I thought? With 2 being seabrook/keith.

Nylander, 1st round pick wasn't the first guy up out of 12 forward spots.

The Sabres were a tire fire. If anyone could provide any help, I think they would have got the nod.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:33 PM ET
Jfyi Luke Johnson who was a center was not qualified by the Hawks; the other Johnson in then system, Reese, was signed as a FA recently is a RW.

I'm also doubtful Quenneville would be a center since I thought he played more wing in the AHL. Could be wrong there though.

- L_B_R


Kurashev is a Center IIRC
Charlie Conway
Buffalo Sabres
Joined: 12.28.2006

Jul 10 @ 11:35 PM ET
Perhaps? We shall see.

Counter point....he quit after he didn't get what he wanted, a nhl roster spot. Not a good look for someone with nhl talent, but no apparent drive.

He, by my eye and from several others, beat out Tage Thompson for a winger spot on the 18-19 Sabres. He was doing great in the preseason. In the final preseason game, he basically shat the bed and it gave cover for Botterill to send him to Rochester so he could keep Tage Thompson who he had just acquired in the ROR trade. Once demoted, he basically only showed up when he wanted to.

If the Hawks can get him motivated, keep him motivated and get him to buy into a system, you could have something

That's my Tage Thompson/Nylander conspiracy theory anyway

- jcragcrumple

jcragcrumple
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Reluctant bridge jumper; 6th round OHL draft pick, YT
Joined: 04.04.2016

Jul 10 @ 11:41 PM ET
Perhaps? We shall see.

Counter point....he quit after he didn't get what he wanted, a nhl roster spot. Not a good look for someone with nhl talent, but no apparent drive.

- Charlie Conway


You basically nailed it right there. Tap into the drive part, and you've got a player. He should be motivated to prove something now though

As for call-ups on the Sabres, CJ Smith, an undrafted guy, outperformed him in the AHL, as did Victor Olofsson, a rare late-round pick who may pan out for us. They got the first looks. Once the season was totally cooked, Nylander got a look for a dozen games. He was fine, if unremarkable. His time here was just done
doctordizzle
Joined: 07.14.2009

Jul 10 @ 11:42 PM ET
Besides picks being in the top 3 (Reinhart, Eichel and Dahlin) the Sabres have not developed anyone correctly. Year after year “the pipeline” ranks near the top, yet they all seem the fizzle out.
Nylander should have been brought up for a longer time when the season was already long gone. He showed off a nice shot in the limited time up.

I hope Middlestat pans out... but the development process in Buffalo/Rochester has to be questioned.

On another note.... if Alex does pan out good luck dealing with his dad 😂

glennjpawlak22
Joined: 11.26.2013

Jul 10 @ 11:42 PM ET
Just caught the end of the 2015 Bolts vs Hawks Stanley cup final game 6 I totally forgot that Kimo Timonen was part of that D squad. As was the jolly giant #43. Oh the memories
oldduffman
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 11.06.2013

Jul 10 @ 11:43 PM ET
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:45 PM ET
Kurashev is a Center IIRC
- EnzoD

Kurashev has played both center and wing over the last few years - center internationally and I believe more wing in the Q.
TommyHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.23.2013

Jul 10 @ 11:45 PM ET
Perhaps? We shall see.

Counter point....he quit after he didn't get what he wanted, a nhl roster spot. Not a good look for someone with nhl talent, but no apparent drive.

- Charlie Conway

To be fair, who have the Sabres successfully developed up front in recent memory? Eichel was a slam dunk pick at 2 in 2015, and Reinhart was picked at 2 overall as well. Not much else to show for from within in quite some time. I think the last top-six forward they developed was Thomas Vanek? Maybe Drew Stafford? All of the talent that Buffalo has had over the years came via free agency or trades. This is a golden ticket for Nylander to land with an organization that has players he idolized growing up, with ample veteran leaders to hold him accountable. Hopefully a change of scenery will do wonders (as is the case with Strome).

Joki is obviously the better bet at this point and I think that the Sabres did a great job here. But with all due respect, the situation Nylander is heading into now is vastly different than in Buffalo.
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:47 PM ET
Joki couldn't crack the band of D the Hawks threw out there last year sooooo...
- PatShart

I mean, technically he cracked it under a HOF coach notorious for preferring vets on defense.
TommyHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.23.2013

Jul 10 @ 11:49 PM ET
I mean, technically he cracked it under a HOF coach notorious for preferring vets on defense.
- L_B_R

Because Murphy was injured to start the season.

Had Murphy been healthy, I don't see how Joki beats out Seabrook, Murphy, and Brandon Manning (who was not paid to be a 7th man). He would have been ticketed for Rockford. Who knows if he even makes it to the NHL at all last season otherwise. No way was Colliton going to call him up based on how he played him after taking over.
L_B_R
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 02.23.2014

Jul 10 @ 11:56 PM ET
Because Murphy was injured to start the season.

Had Murphy been healthy, I don't see how Joki beats out Seabrook, Murphy, and Brandon Manning (who was not paid to be a 7th man). He would have been ticketed for Rockford. Who knows if he even makes it to the NHL at all last season otherwise. No way was Colliton going to call him up based on how he played him after taking over.

- TommyHawk

Eh, that's a weak excuse imo. Q was never going to play Manning over Jokiharju no matter how much he was being paid - he had Manning playing bottom pair from game 1 and rotated him in the press box by like game 7. And it's highly doubtful he would have played Murphy over him either. People seem to forget that Q did not care for Murphy - played him bottom pair minutes and crap assignments the season before. He liked Oesterle on his offside better ffs.

Anyway, they had a lot of other options in Rockford if they just wanted to fill a spot due to injury. If Q didn't genuinely like the kid, they would have sent him back to juniors rather than burn an ELC year. Q not only played the kid, but gave him top pairing minutes and raved about him in a way Q is not wont to do. He made the roster because Q thought he was better than everyone but Keith pretty much. JC didn't agree obviously but that doesn't change how Q viewed him.
jcragcrumple
Buffalo Sabres
Location: Reluctant bridge jumper; 6th round OHL draft pick, YT
Joined: 04.04.2016

Jul 10 @ 11:56 PM ET
To be fair, who have the Sabres successfully developed up front in recent memory? Eichel was a slam dunk pick at 2 in 2015, and Reinhart was picked at 2 overall as well. Not much else to show for from within in quite some time. I think the last top-six forward they developed was Thomas Vanek? Maybe Drew Stafford? All of the talent that Buffalo has had over the years came via free agency or trades. This is a golden ticket for Nylander to land with an organization that has players he idolized growing up, with ample veteran leaders to hold him accountable. Hopefully a change of scenery will do wonders (as is the case with Strome).

Joki is obviously the better bet at this point and I think that the Sabres did a great job here. But with all due respect, the situation Nylander is heading into now is vastly different than in Buffalo.

- TommyHawk


Ennis (pre concussions) and then bottom 6ers like Foligno and Girgensons.

You have to remember too that the Sabres former GM Tim Murray basically traded away everything to acquire his players.

Armia, Compher, plus draft picks that became Colin white and Jack Roslovic. And that's just the forwards. Not great players by any means, but he had bled the organization dry by the time he left. The Sabres are rebuilding his botched rebuild
TommyHawk
Chicago Blackhawks
Joined: 05.23.2013

Jul 11 @ 12:00 AM ET
Ennis (pre concussions) and then bottom 6ers like Foligno and Girgensons.

You have to remember too that the Sabres former GM Tim Murray basically traded away everything to acquire his players.

Armia, Compher, plus draft picks that became Colin white and Jack Roslovic. And that's just the forwards. Not great players by any means, but he had bled the organization dry by the time he left. The Sabres are rebuilding his botched rebuild

- jcragcrumple

Right, so clearly the infrastructure for him to succeed in wasn't there.

I think Nylander will now be given a fair shake to showcase his talent. If it doesn't pan out, then so be it. I think Joki is a good bet to be a very, very effective player for the Sabres. The foundation is looking really good in upstate New York.
EnzoD
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Denver, CO
Joined: 02.19.2014

Jul 11 @ 12:05 AM ET
Right, so clearly the infrastructure for him to succeed in wasn't there.

I think Nylander will now be given a fair shake to showcase his talent. If it doesn't pan out, then so be it. I think Joki is a good bet to be a very, very effective player for the Sabres. The foundation is looking really good in upstate New York.

- TommyHawk


There are actually a lot of similarities to the Strome situation from the mental/emotional side of the game.....when you consider that Nylander grew up playing AAA youth hockey in Chicago and his Dad played for the Hawks, it’s comparable to Strome who was excited to play with BFF and former Erie otter lineman DeBrincat. Nylander should be extremely motivated to earn a spot on Kane’s off wing....Time will tell.
RickJ
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Burlington, ON
Joined: 01.12.2010

Jul 11 @ 12:08 AM ET
Besides picks being in the top 3 (Reinhart, Eichel and Dahlin) the Sabres have not developed anyone correctly. Year after year “the pipeline” ranks near the top, yet they all seem the fizzle out.
Nylander should have been brought up for a longer time when the season was already long gone. He showed off a nice shot in the limited time up.

I hope Middlestat pans out... but the development process in Buffalo/Rochester has to be questioned.

On another note.... if Alex does pan out good luck dealing with his dad 😂

- doctordizzle

Taking a kid out of high school and awarding him a position on the NHL team isnt development. Its throwing sh$t at a wall and hoping it sticks. Their idea of development was to send him to the World Championships so he cpuld play against pros for a few games.

Even the decision to hire Phil Housley was flawed which made matters worse.

Hopefully Botterill can get the team going in the right direction soon before more fans abandon ship. It is a good hocley market, fans deserve better.
AEL_Fox
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: CA
Joined: 06.18.2016

Jul 11 @ 12:08 AM ET
Jfyi Luke Johnson who was a center was not qualified by the Hawks; the other Johnson in then system, Reese, was signed as a FA recently is a RW.

I'm also doubtful Quenneville would be a center since I thought he played more wing in the AHL. Could be wrong there though.

- L_B_R

Thanks as always for the insights, LBR.

I knew about L Johnson and others like Louis and Hillman. Luke eventually signed on with the Wild.

Reese played mostly center in his brief intro to the AHL last season but you’re right that he was signed on as a winger. Maybe he eventually stays at wing but thought he acquitted himself well as a center especially doing well on draws for the few Hogs games he’s logged so far.

And I think that’s right about Quenneville being a winger. Honestly don’t know much about him and didn’t follow him when he was in the Devils system.
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