I think if we are being honest here , we all agree Stan has made some awful decisions, seabrooks contract, signing Bickell to a 4million dollar contract based on his playoff series only to turn around the following summer and have to give up t evo just to move Bickell,

Denault

All of these new acquisitions whom we haven't had the chance to watch and or play in the nhl either enough or at all it will be interesting to see how things may or may not work out.

Sure on paper they have improved from last year, but until they hit the ice and start playing we won't know how things will workout.
- Taylorst1

Stan's made good and bad decisions and I won't rehash all of them. Would I love to have Danault back? Sure, but I get why he was traded and also how and why it didn't work out.

Would love to have Teuvo back, but I'm one of the few here who seemed to like Bickell and didn't mind the contract at the time. I'll admit I wasn't in the know like some that he would eventually be diagnosed with MS, so that took me completely by surprise...kudos to you though.

Seabs' deal to me was the real stinker...not so much for the money but when coupled with the term was no gouda for sure.

On your other points...

On paper they've improved? Ok, agree.

We won't know until they play how things will workout? Yep, no argument there.

So until then you'll crap all over them before a single minute of hockey's been played even though you acknowledge they seem to be fielding a better team than last year?

So if we're being honest, do you see where a reasonable person might be in disagreement with that last part?

Hey Rick you summed it up nicely. Most posters are a fickle bunch who can love and hate and love the team again in the course of a game. Many fans try to make judgements in real time and not over the course of a number of games. Last year at this time many posters were all in the "move out the bum Toews camp", now that idea is silent. A number of years ago it was "get rid of the bum who's ruining the brand, patrick kane" and now it's silent. We'll know next week if Nylander is a bum or a hero by how many points he does or doesn't get and I sure hope Dach gets a point or two or the "woe is me" crowd will be calling for Bowman's head.
- paulr

Remember something else- the Great Satan of Line Juggling Coach Q is responsible for many bad things that have happened to the Hawks. And he also had very little to do with the team winning Cups, posters on here could have coached those teams.

Colliton better have very thick skin if the team gets off to a slow start.

I think if we are being honest here , we all agree Stan has made some awful decisions, seabrooks contract, signing Bickell to a 4million dollar contract based on his playoff series only to turn around the following summer and have to give up t evo just to move Bickell,

Denault

All of these new acquisitions whom we haven't had the chance to watch and or play in the nhl either enough or at all it will be interesting to see how things may or may not work out.

Sure on paper they have improved from last year, but until they hit the ice and start playing we won't know how things will workout.
- Taylorst1

It's not Stan's fault Bickell had MS JFC!

One best shows as Netflix original i binge watch season 3 in 2 days its that good. Black summer is also good. I like the trade to be honest i always saw joki as a 4 behind the others, time will only tell what happen but like the direction of the team and plan.
- Scott1977

My favorite is Peaky Blinders, despite the fact that the Boston Bruins love the show too.

Is this Stan in disguise?
- rtang415

Seabrook's contract was awful, Agreed!

Bickell had this small health problem called MS. Except to the very uniformed this was not on Bowman or even Bickell. The subsequent trading of Bickell for cap space and including TT was unfortunate but again it was another part of an unfortunate circumstance.

The Danault trade was done for the correct reason, bolstering the team for the playoffs. Where I blame Bowman was for not being on the same page as Q as to the retuen.

So over the course of ten seasons Bowman has balanced on the edge of the salary cap to win two additioncups after 2010, made one awful mistake in signing Seabrook and made a poor judgement move in trading away Danault, a serviceable forward who on this site has become a surefire Hall of Famer. The job he did wining those two cups far outweighs the Seabrook mistake. That's not to say he shouldn't be judged by management for this current reool/rebuild and so far he seems to be doing some nice work in that regard.
- paulr

I understand your point . Setting aside Bickell MS which is sad in itself.

Chicago has always had cap issues , that was nothing new it wasn't like Stan wasn't aware of any future resignings or needed cap space,
Stan also knew Bickell was purely a big bodied 4th line player who was streaky, Tevo was a purely special player that was more valuable to Chicago's future than Bickell.

Stan never had the hoodspa to let players walk , if we don't sign Bickell, maybe someone else over pays him maybe his value isn't that high and stan signs him for less.


The same goes for Seabrook especially at his age when he was offered that contract, that's a huge blinking red flag.


That's why a lot of us question Stans decisions.

That's my entire point.

Honestly, if the other Alex can get up the ice and to the circle and bang in one timers (if his release is as good as Wiz says) then maybe this isn't a terrible deal.

I'd just thought they'd get more or a proven commodity for a young, mobile defender with a heavy shot that looks like a solid top 4 guy.

At least the off season hasn't been boring.

Stan's made good and bad decisions and I won't rehash all of them. Would I love to have Danault back? Sure, but I get why he was traded and also how and why it didn't work out.

Would love to have Teuvo back, but I'm one of the few here who seemed to like Bickell and didn't mind the contract at the time. I'll admit I wasn't in the know like some that he would eventually be diagnosed with MS, so that took me completely ny surprise...kudos to you though.

Seabs' deal to me was the real stinker...not so much for the money but when coupled with the term was no gouda for sure.

On your other points...

On paper they've improved? Ok, agree.

We won't know until they play how things will workout? Yep, no argument there.

So until then you'll crap all over them before a single minute of hockey's been played even though you acknowledge they seem to be fielding a better team than last year?

So if we're being honest, do you see where a reasonable person might be in disagreement with that last part?
- HawkintheD

Now you’re just being unreasonable.

Agreed.

I'm an eternal optimist, but I don't think that the front office would take a gamble like this if they weren't sure that he'd be motivated in a change of scenery.

Training camp can't get here soon enough.
- TommyHawk

But how could the FO be sure of anything like that? Certainly (I would think) they would think that a change of scenary MIGHT / could possibly / maybe motivate him into fulfilling his prophecy.

I would think (again) that they maybe saw a player they had who might have been good but was in the middle of a deep prospect pool at one position (Jokiharju at defenseman) and that they had a weak prospect pool at the other (forward) and went for the move.

They may have made the wrong deal - but for all of the talk about how Jokiharju should have brought back a bigger return - they moved one player with potential who hasn't yet proved anything (other than he could be an OK player pairing with Keith) for another with potential who hasn't yet proved anything.

I can't say I like this deal yet - but I'm more mellow about it than I was on Tuesday afternoon.

It's not Stan's fault Bickell had MS JFC!
- rpeters01

Quite using the MS as the basis for your argument. That has no factor whatsoever in Stans foolish decsion to overpay a 4th line guy whom never once put together a full productive season as a offensive power forward.

He had a great playoff series and was overpaid , his production dropped off the next season or should I stay reality of the type of player he always was settled in.


Nobody knew of his ms for at least another year in a half.

Hey Rick you summed it up nicely. Most posters are a fickle bunch who can love and hate and love the team again in the course of a game. Many fans try to make judgements in real time and not over the course of a number of games. Last year at this time many posters were all in the "move out the bum Toews camp", now that idea is silent. A number of years ago it was "get rid of the bum who's ruining the brand, patrick kane" and now it's silent. We'll know next week if Nylander is a bum or a hero by how many points he does or doesn't get and I sure hope Dach gets a point or two or the "woe is me" crowd will be calling for Bowman's head.
- paulr

Off with his head!

Think I'll wait till Nov before screaming for heads on silver platters..

Stan's made good and bad decisions and I won't rehash all of them. Would I love to have Danault back? Sure, but I get why he was traded and also how and why it didn't work out.

Would love to have Teuvo back, but I'm one of the few here who seemed to like Bickell and didn't mind the contract at the time. I'll admit I wasn't in the know like some that he would eventually be diagnosed with MS, so that took me completely ny surprise...kudos to you though.

Seabs' deal to me was the real stinker...not so much for the money but when coupled with the term was no gouda for sure.

On your other points...

On paper they've improved? Ok, agree.

We won't know until they play how things will workout? Yep, no argument there.

So until then you'll crap all over them before a single minute of hockey's been played even though you acknowledge they seem to be fielding a better team than last year?

So if we're being honest, do you see where a reasonable person might be in disagreement with that last part?
- HawkintheD

I can see and understand your point. I'm just very skeptic, and maybe being over objective because of past let downs after being spoiled for so long with watching them win and be exciting .

Not to mention Stans many mind boggling decisions.

Something that is a very positive right now in Blackhswks-land.. the GM and Coach talk (a lot!) and from what I've heard are on the same page.

This means Colliton has been instrumental in having a voice in these moves.

It doesn't all fall on the coach and these moves are a group effort (Stan, coaching staff, scouts, etcs) and what I'm happy about is that there is a gameplan on where these additions fit on the team.

It was obvious and well-documented that Stan and Q didn't see eye-to-eye on all moves. I would wager that Joel lost a bit of a seat at the table in that regard the last few years.

Evidence of the Hammer and Panarin trades. Daley being misused, and the list goes on.

If given the right pieces, I'm confident that Colliton will put these guys in the right position to succeed based on how closely he and Stan have been working together this offseason.

Quite using the MS as the basis for your argument. That has no factor whatsoever in Stans foolish decsion to overpay a 4th line guy whom never once put together a full productive season as a offensive power forward.

He had a great playoff series and was overpaid , his production dropped off the next season or should I stay reality of the type of player he always was settled in.


Nobody knew of his ms for at least another year in a half.
- Taylorst1

He wasn’t a 4th liner they saw him as a power forward and in the playoffs before his contract he was that. Just because he wasn’t diagnosed till later didn’t mean the ms wasn’t a factor in his play. If your going to complain let it be because bickells rep wanted a new deal which would’ve been for less before those playoffs as the story goes. If true that’s what you pin on bowman

Quite using the MS as the basis for your argument. That has no factor whatsoever in Stans foolish decsion to overpay a 4th line guy whom never once put together a full productive season as a offensive power forward.

He had a great playoff series and was overpaid , his production dropped off the next season or should I stay reality of the type of player he always was settled in.


Nobody knew of his ms for at least another year in a half.
- Taylorst1

He was streaky in the regular season but had good playoff performances in 2012 and 2014 as well. While Bickell wasn't scoring he was providing a lot of physical play in 2015, especially against the Ducks.

Sami Vatanen possibly has PTSD from the amount of times Bickell pasted him in the corners.

So maybe when MS was beginning to exert it's effects is what you saw happening to B29 vs "the type of player he always was settled in".

My guess is you weren't actually a TT guy until Bowman got rid of him...just a thought.

I think if we are being honest here , we all agree Stan has made some awful decisions, seabrooks contract, signing Bickell to a 4million dollar contract based on his playoff series only to turn around the following summer and have to give up t evo just to move Bickell,

Denault

All of these new acquisitions whom we haven't had the chance to watch and or play in the nhl either enough or at all it will be interesting to see how things may or may not work out.

Sure on paper they have improved from last year, but until they hit the ice and start playing we won't know how things will workout.
- Taylorst1

Yes Bowman has made mistakes. Please name me one general manager that has at least 5 years experience, let alone 10 that have not made mistakes? Armstrong has been with St. Louis over 10 years (after being fired by Dallas). You are going to tell me Armstrong has made no mistakes before this year?. I would gather to say he has made much more, including hiring Payne, Hitchcock, and Yeo as coaches.

He was streaky in the regular season but had good playoff performances in 2012 and 2014 as well. While Bickell wasn't scoring he was providing a lot of physical play in 2015, especially against the Ducks.

Sami Vatanen possibly has PTSD from the amount of times Bickell pasted him in the corners.

So maybe when MS was beginning to exert it's effects is what you saw happening to B29 vs "the type of player he always was settled in".

My guess is you weren't actually a TT guy until Bowman got rid of him...just a thought.
- HawkintheD

No I liked Tevo , don't confuse that please. You make some valid points, but in a hard salary cap era, sometimes tough choices have to be made for the Future of the team, and with a hard cap it is important to draft, develop young up and coming players to offset salaries and be the next future generational stars.
A 20 year old future star with a high ceiling over a 29 year old topped out 4th line player.

Loving the engagement on the boards! For me, every time I see projected lineups, the wild card that sticks out is Kubalik. If he were able to slot into a top line role with Toews or Kane, that really shores up a hard working set of bottom 6 with Shaw down on the 3rd line. However, wherever he plays, he's still a wild card. Could be a big plus, or another Kahun. Just don't want another Stalberg/Panik player.

Something that is a very positive right now in Blackhswks-land.. the GM and Coach talk (a lot!) and from what I've heard are on the same page.

This means Colliton has been instrumental in having a voice in these moves.

It doesn't all fall on the coach and these moves are a group effort (Stan, coaching staff, scouts, etcs) and what I'm happy about is that there is a gameplan on where these additions fit on the team.

It was obvious and well-documented that Stan and Q didn't see eye-to-eye on all moves. I would wager that Joel lost a bit of a seat at the table in that regard the last few years.

Evidence of the Hammer and Panarin trades. Daley being misused, and the list goes on.

If given the right pieces, I'm confident that Colliton will put these guys in the right position to succeed based on how closely he and Stan have been working together this offseason.
- Tyler Cameron

Great point. I think also the team they are putting together (while it might not raise the cup) should be entertaining and have my favorite quality... a lot of unknowns to keep us discussing. They said they weren't going to be coming back with the same players and so far this is proving to be very true. I'm enjoying the ride even if I don't think i'd make all the same trades.

Loving the engagement on the boards! For me, every time I see projected lineups, the wild card that sticks out is Kubalik. If he were able to slot into a top line role with Toews or Kane, that really shores up a hard working set of bottom 6 with Shaw down on the 3rd line. However, wherever he plays, he's still a wild card. Could be a big plus, or another Kahun. Just don't want another Stalberg/Panik player.
- resqmed99

We really have no idea at this point, but if I had to pick which new addition/wild card will make the biggest impact I would agree with Kubalik. I don't think Dach and Nylander make the team until next season. Carpenter will make a positive, but lesser impact.

Quite using the MS as the basis for your argument. That has no factor whatsoever in Stans foolish decsion to overpay a 4th line guy whom never once put together a full productive season as a offensive power forward.

He had a great playoff series and was overpaid , his production dropped off the next season or should I stay reality of the type of player he always was settled in.


Nobody knew of his ms for at least another year in a half.
- Taylorst1

Revisionist history is easy when you either don't know or don't consider all the facts.

There were 3 "power forwards" up for new contracts in the summer of 2013 and the $4M x 4 years deal Stan gave Bickell was the best deal of the bunch - the other two guys got more than Bickell did. Regardless of your opinion that Bickell wasn't worth that contract - the market said he was. Stan was faced with either paying market value for a player who had just been the second highest scorer on the Cup winning team or watching him walk for nothing. The decision he made to sign Bickell was the correct decision at the time given the circumstances.

It's unfortunate how it worked out - but those are the facts. It's fashionable to bash Stan, and it's not totally unwarranted, but at least be knowledgeable and honest in doing so.

Loving the engagement on the boards! For me, every time I see projected lineups, the wild card that sticks out is Kubalik. If he were able to slot into a top line role with Toews or Kane, that really shores up a hard working set of bottom 6 with Shaw down on the 3rd line. However, wherever he plays, he's still a wild card. Could be a big plus, or another Kahun. Just don't want another Stalberg/Panik player.
- resqmed99

I really think Kubalik is going to fit in well. Just me, but I think he is probably got more offensive upside that Kahun in terms of goal scoring. Kahun I think was better at making passes, but I also feel like Kubalik might be better at engaging in puck battles.

No I liked Tevo , don't confuse that please. You make some valid points, but in a hard salary cap era, sometimes tough choices have to be made for the Future of the team, and with a hard cap it is important to draft, develop young up and coming players to offset salaries and be the next future generational stars.
A 20 year old future star with a high ceiling over a 29 year old topped out 4th line player.
- Taylorst1

Ok, sorry, my bad. AFAICT you weren't posting here at the time so I'll take your word for it.

I agree with your premise on player development, but disagree with the notion that Bickell was merely and purely a 4th liner. Also, I'm reasonably sure he wasn't 29 when that deal was signed which negates part of the premise.

CapFriendly.com Armchair-GM User-Generated Roster

FORWARDS (12)
Right wing: Patrick Kane ($10,500,000) - Andrew Shaw ($3,900,000) - Dylan Sikura ($750,000) - David Kämpf ($1,000,000)
Centre: Jonathan Toews ($10,500,000) - Dylan Strome ($863,333) - Artem Anisimov ($4,550,000) - Ryan Carpenter ($1,000,000)
Left wing: Brandon Saad ($6,000,000) - Alex DeBrincat ($778,333) - Dominik Kubalik ($925,000) - Drake Caggiula ($1,500,000)

DEFENSE (6)
Right: Erik Gustafsson ($1,200,000) - Connor Murphy ($3,850,000) - Brent Seabrook ($6,875,000)
Left: Duncan Keith ($5,538,462) - Calvin De Haan ($4,550,000) - Olli Määttä ($4,083,333)

GOALTENDER (2)
Corey Crawford ($6,000,000) - Robin Lehner ($5,000,000)

DETAILS
Roster Size: 22
Salary Cap: $81,500,000
Cap Hit: $81,038,461
Cap Space: $461,539

But how could the FO be sure of anything like that? Certainly (I would think) they would think that a change of scenary MIGHT / could possibly / maybe motivate him into fulfilling his prophecy.

I would think (again) that they maybe saw a player they had who might have been good but was in the middle of a deep prospect pool at one position (Jokiharju at defenseman) and that they had a weak prospect pool at the other (forward) and went for the move.

They may have made the wrong deal - but for all of the talk about how Jokiharju should have brought back a bigger return - they moved one player with potential who hasn't yet proved anything (other than he could be an OK player pairing with Keith) for another with potential who hasn't yet proved anything.

I can't say I like this deal yet - but I'm more mellow about it than I was on Tuesday afternoon.
- StLBravesFan

The front office cant be sure of anything regarding a kid like Nylander's attitude or entitlement issues or the influence of others in his entourage.

But I want to believe that the 2 GMs had straight talk discussions about the players and what their respective teams need. A gpod reationship lays the groundwork for future deals (and favours) when required. Botterill has nowhere to go but up with his team, burning a bridge with Bowman by not being honest and candid wouldnt be a good move by him long term. Relationships count in the NHL.

And one other thing - there are many ex NHL players and managers that live in the Buffalo area. Scotty Bowman may still own a house around there. There are many contacts the Bowman's could have called to get all the goods on Nylander.