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Forums :: Blog World :: HockeyBuzz Hotstove: Thoughts on the Jason Zucker trade?
Author Message
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Feb 11 @ 2:06 PM ET
if 28 EV points is what you're expecting from a 1st line winger, then you probably need to set the bar a little higher.

just looking at your team....guentzel is a "legit 1st line winger" and he had 64 EV pts.

looking at my train wreck of a team, Ryan Dzingel last season (between Ottawa and CBJ) had about 45 EV pts, and I wouldn't even consider him a "legit 1st line winger".

hell, even according to your link (which is a ridiculous article), he still falls short of the BARE MINIMUM at EV to be considered a legit 1st liner

is he a good player - ABSOLUTELY

is he a legit first line player - there is literally nothing about his game that is 1st line calibre

- sensarmy_11



Except for his production that year.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 11 @ 2:10 PM ET
Wait...is there a Senators fan on here talking about a GM getting hosed?

Every GM has his share of flops when it comes to big trades, but lately, the Senators have cornered that market.
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 2:12 PM ET
Well its nice to cherry pick two guys like that for the purpose of your narrative here today but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of other 1st line players producing less than those two you point out. Again, that's also a down year for Zucker.
- MattStrat


I named 2 off the top of my head.........why don't you find me 2 legit 1st liners who produce less than zucker
shamula62
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Charleston, WV
Joined: 09.28.2006

Feb 11 @ 2:15 PM ET
Can't believe I am actually saying this, but I agree with Tanner.
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Feb 11 @ 2:18 PM ET
I named 2 off the top of my head.........why don't you find me 2 legit 1st liners who produce less than zucker
- sensarmy_11



...but I already stated he didnt quite make the cut off for 1st line ES production last season, in a down year. Not quite. Sooo....why would I look for that?
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 2:18 PM ET
Wait...is there a Senators fan on here talking about a GM getting hosed?

Every GM has his share of flops when it comes to big trades, but lately, the Senators have cornered that market.

- jmatchett383


first - I never said he got hosed, I said I think it was a bit too much for a guy who's realistically a 2nd or 3rd liner

second - other than the Hoffman deal, and the Duchene deal (which was like 3 years ago) which trade did Dorion get hosed on? He won the Karlsson trade BY A MILE, he won the Duchene trade (to CBJ), he won the Dzingel trade, the Stone trade was always going to be a loss, but if Brannstrom plays to his potential that will be close to a wash.

elaborate on which flop trade he's made recently?
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 2:20 PM ET
...but I already stated he didnt quite make the cut off for 1st line ES production last season, in a down year. Not quite. Sooo....why would I look for that?
- MattStrat


last year wasn't a down year for him, it was on par with most of his career.....the year before was the outlier for him.

and based on your post, you're agreeing with what I said......he's not a 1st liner, he's a good 2nd liner
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 2:22 PM ET
Except for his production that year.
- MattStrat


you mean that one outlier year, 2-3 seasons ago...........sure

I remember the year Cheechoo had 50 goals too, and hell, mark Borowiecki was like top 3 in goals by Dmen a few days ago.....does that make him a legit top pairing dman

if you want to judge every player by their one outlier year, then I guess it's an entire league of top six forwards and top 4 dmen.............
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 11 @ 2:24 PM ET
first - I never said he got hosed, I said I think it was a bit too much for a guy who's realistically a 2nd or 3rd liner

second - other than the Hoffman deal, and the Duchene deal (which was like 3 years ago) which trade did Dorion get hosed on? He won the Karlsson trade BY A MILE, he won the Duchene trade (to CBJ), he won the Dzingel trade, the Stone trade was always going to be a loss, but if Brannstrom plays to his potential that will be close to a wash.

elaborate on which flop trade he's made recently?

- sensarmy_11


The EK trade looks good in hindsight, but the return at the time was less than underwhelming. And as you said, the Stone and Hoffman deals were clear losses (Brannstrom may help even that out in the coming years). That's basically the veteran core of the team all gone in less than 2 years for all very small returns (again, given their value at the time of the trades).
Newgod77
Boston Bruins
Location: IL
Joined: 05.10.2015

Feb 11 @ 2:29 PM ET
If you agree with tanner you are probably an idiot.
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 2:32 PM ET
The EK trade looks good in hindsight, but the return at the time was less than underwhelming. And as you said, the Stone and Hoffman deals were clear losses (Brannstrom may help even that out in the coming years). That's basically the veteran core of the team all gone in less than 2 years for all very small returns (again, given their value at the time of the trades).
- jmatchett383


i'm by no means a "dorion guy" but considering that he's been working with both hands and a foot tied behind his back, financially speaking, he's done a pretty good job.

the only clear loss was Hoffman, and just getting that POS out of the lockerroom was worth taking the loss.....and the Duchene deal, which was a clear case of him misjudging how good his team was at the time. neither deal crippled the team, so whatever at the end of the day.

as for this deal......I wasn't disputing that the GM got hosed, I wasn't disputing that Zucker is a good player.....I was disputing Tanner's claim that he's absolutely a 1st line player. i'll never be convinced that he is, and the fact that it's Tanner arguing the case pretty much does nothing but solidify my argument.
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Feb 11 @ 2:32 PM ET
you mean that one outlier year, 2-3 seasons ago...........sure

I remember the year Cheechoo had 50 goals too, and hell, mark Borowiecki was like top 3 in goals by Dmen a few days ago.....does that make him a legit top pairing dman

if you want to judge every player by their one outlier year, then I guess it's an entire league of top six forwards and top 4 dmen.............

- sensarmy_11


I dont. I'm not...but in those years that youve mentioned for those players they were producing at a 1st line rate, so that season they were a 1st line player. Youre basing Zucker not being one on one of his full seasons, which was last year. The two seasons before that he had 48 and 46 ES points.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 11 @ 2:37 PM ET
i'm by no means a "dorion guy" but considering that he's been working with both hands and a foot tied behind his back, financially speaking, he's done a pretty good job.

the only clear loss was Hoffman, and just getting that POS out of the lockerroom was worth taking the loss.....and the Duchene deal, which was a clear case of him misjudging how good his team was at the time. neither deal crippled the team, so whatever at the end of the day.

as for this deal......I wasn't disputing that the GM got hosed, I wasn't disputing that Zucker is a good player.....I was disputing Tanner's claim that he's absolutely a 1st line player. i'll never be convinced that he is, and the fact that it's Tanner arguing the case pretty much does nothing but solidify my argument.

- sensarmy_11


I agree that he isn't a typical first liner, but he's also playing for a Minnesota team stuck in neutral for the past half decade. I think there's more to his game. I just think that he's a very good player and that the return for him was, at worst, a minimal overpay. Gotta give to get, and the Penguins don't have a vested interest past 3-4 years right now.

Also, Dorion has a good chance to make a steal with a Pageau trade. If he doesn't wait till the last minute, he could bring quite a haul. And I agree it hasn't all been in a vacuum, but the returns for those 3 (not counting Duchesne) players hasn't exactly been exciting.
Darklight11
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Joined: 04.23.2016

Feb 11 @ 3:12 PM ET
The world must be coming to an end......I completely agree with James Tanner. Those saying the Pens gave up too much do not understand the emergence of John Marino and how he opened the door for the Pens to trade Calen.
BestRapperAlive
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: OEL is one of the greatest players of his generation - James Tanner
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 11 @ 3:34 PM ET

How many teams has galchenyuk been on now, like 5?

anyone remember when tanner insisted galchenyuk was better than domi?
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 11 @ 3:36 PM ET
How many teams has galchenyuk been on now, like 5?

anyone remember when tanner insisted galchenyuk was better than domi?

- BestRapperAlive


Yep. It's right up there with Garth calling Grigorenko the best player in the world.
BestRapperAlive
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: OEL is one of the greatest players of his generation - James Tanner
Joined: 06.21.2012

Feb 11 @ 3:42 PM ET
Yep. It's right up there with Garth calling Grigorenko the best player in the world.
- jmatchett383


during the world junior tournament no less. as in, before he played an nhl game

right up there with tanner calling oel a generational player

right up there with tanner saying gardiner has elite defensive abilities, is the most underrated player in nhl history, and should be considered a superstar

but to be fair, that last one is 100% trolling because no-one is that dumb
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 11 @ 3:50 PM ET
during the world junior tournament no less. as in, before he played an nhl game

right up there with tanner calling oel a generational player

right up there with tanner saying gardiner has elite defensive abilities, is the most underrated player in nhl history, and should be considered a superstar

but to be fair, that last one is 100% trolling because no-one is that dumb

- BestRapperAlive


Tanner does love him some hyperbole.
xShoot4WarAmpsx
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joined: 06.25.2010

Feb 11 @ 4:45 PM ET
Minnesota did well. Zucker was not going to fetch a 1st round pick and PIT had no ability to make that trade.

Minnesota was able to get a 1st round pick because they took Galchenyuk back in return. This is similar to the deal Philadelphia made with St. Louis. Hextall wanted the draft picks but St. Louis couldnt take B.Schenn without shedding salary so Philly took Lehtera back and we ended up with Two 1st round picks instead what I assume would have just been 1. Flyers may have taken a step backwards by dealing Schenn who was hitting his prime but those 2 First round picks (Joel Farabee and Morgan Frost) are expected to be top talent in the league.

Minnesota did well on a player that lets face it, is a low tier 2nd line player
powerhouse
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Columbia , MD
Joined: 11.28.2006

Feb 11 @ 5:22 PM ET

Hard to admit, but I agree with Tanner on this one...
j.boyd919
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Tampa, FL
Joined: 06.14.2011

Feb 11 @ 6:57 PM ET
if 28 EV points is what you're expecting from a 1st line winger, then you probably need to set the bar a little higher.

just looking at your team....guentzel is a "legit 1st line winger" and he had 64 EV pts.

looking at my train wreck of a team, Ryan Dzingel last season (between Ottawa and CBJ) had about 45 EV pts, and I wouldn't even consider him a "legit 1st line winger".

hell, even according to your link (which is a ridiculous article), he still falls short of the BARE MINIMUM at EV to be considered a legit 1st liner

is he a good player - ABSOLUTELY

is he a legit first line player - there is literally nothing about his game that is 1st line calibre

- sensarmy_11


Guentzel is an elite winger. Zucker is a 1st line winger.
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 7:06 PM ET
Guentzel is an elite winger. Zucker is a 1st line winger.
- j.boyd919


Guentzel is ABSOLUTELY an elite winger

Zucker is ABSOLUTELY NOT a 1st line winger.
j.boyd919
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Tampa, FL
Joined: 06.14.2011

Feb 11 @ 7:10 PM ET
Guentzel is ABSOLUTELY an elite winger

Zucker is ABSOLUTELY NOT a 1st line winger.

- sensarmy_11


Statistics say otherwise. Thanks, come again.
sensarmy_11
Location: NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Feb 11 @ 7:11 PM ET
Statistics say otherwise. Thanks, come again.
- j.boyd919


Which stats?

Please provide these stats, cuz so far every stat provided in this thread have shown he’s nothing more than a decent 2nd liner.
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Feb 11 @ 7:17 PM ET
Which stats?

Please provide these stats, cuz so far every stat provided in this thread have shown he’s nothing more than a decent 2nd liner.

- sensarmy_11


What about the ES point totals the two season before last? Those arnt good enough stats? What do you get when you average the last 3 seasons ES points?
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