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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Flyers Handle Florida, 6-2
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jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:41 AM ET
Every goalie is different. Just because Binnington did it doesnt mean others can, how many rookie goalies lead their team to stanley cups? Not many
- xShoot4WarAmpsx


Matt Murray comes to mind. Did it in back-to-back years as a matter of fact, his rookie season was when he won his second Cup. That makes 3 goalies in the last 4 years. Bobrovsky lost his first-ever playoff game 1-0 ((frank)ing Kaleta...really?). Boucher almost won a Cup in 2000.

I'm not saying he can or can't, but I don't know how you are saying he can't/shouldn't without giving him the chance.

And just to set the record straight, Carter Hart is not a rookie.
KINGKENZO
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: OMAR COMIN'..Head or Gut?.....Watching regular white people
Joined: 01.10.2008

Feb 14 @ 9:42 AM ET
Sure do. I watch Elliott give up stoppable, back breaking goals over and over again.
- Feanor

hahahahaah

ok
xShoot4WarAmpsx
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joined: 06.25.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:43 AM ET
Matt Murray comes to mind. Did it in back-to-back years as a matter of fact, his rookie season was when he won his second Cup. That makes 3 goalies in the last 4 years. Bobrovsky lost his first-ever playoff game 1-0 ((frank)ing Kaleta...really?). Boucher almost won a Cup in 2000.

I'm not saying he can or can't, but I don't know how you are saying he can't/shouldn't without giving him the chance.

And just to set the record straight, Carter Hart is not a rookie.

- jmatchett383


Murray spent the first year behind Fleury, Fleury started the playoffs and then Murray ended up taking over cuz Fleury was dropping the ball in the playoffs
Feanor
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: DE
Joined: 02.13.2013

Feb 14 @ 9:43 AM ET
Assuming you're talking about overall SV%, Some of the goalies below him are Brayden Holtby, Pekka Rinne, and Segrei Bobrovsky. If you're talking ES SV%, take off Rinne and add Matt Murray. Not the seasons those guys want, but clear #1s (Murray lost it to Jarry for the moment).

Some of the guys above Carter Hart in both categories are David Rittich, Mikko Koskinen, Joonas Korpisalo, MacKenize Blackwood, James Reimer, and Pavel Francouz.

Surely there must be some other metric to judge goalies, as I don't think Pavel Francouz and James Reimer are better goalies than Carter Hart despite their statistics.

- jmatchett383


There's plenty of other ones. Brian Elliott has a Goals Saved Above Expectation of -6.85 in All-Situations (Score & Venue Adjusted Per EvolvingHockey). That’s 60th out of 81 qualifying goalies who have faced at least 50 shots against this season.

https://evolving-hockey.c...ull&std_gl_team=%22All%22

In GSAA he's also ranked very low.

https://www.hockey-refere....html#stats::gs_above_avg
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:45 AM ET
Murray spent the first year behind Fleury, Fleury started the playoffs and then Murray ended up taking over cuz Fleury was dropping the ball in the playoffs
- xShoot4WarAmpsx


Marc-Andre Fleury was injured to start the 2016 playoffs. He played 2 games all playoff long.
Feanor
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: DE
Joined: 02.13.2013

Feb 14 @ 9:45 AM ET
hahahahaah

ok

- KINGKENZO


You asked me if I watched the games, but you didn't even watch the games from this week. Or you're so deep in denial you can't admit that Elliott had to get a piece of Pulock's shot.

I wonder if there are Buffalo fans telling themselves Carter Hutton is having a good season.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:47 AM ET
There's plenty of other ones. Brian Elliott has a Goals Saved Above Expectation of -6.85 in All-Situations (Score & Venue Adjusted Per EvolvingHockey). That’s 60th out of 81 qualifying goalies who have faced at least 50 shots against this season.

In GSAA he's also ranked very low.

https://www.hockey-refere....html#stats::gs_above_avg

- Feanor


I'm not saying he's having a statistically bad year. But I think (not looking) there have been some games, for both he and Hart, where they've been blown out or given up quick goals in succession more often than it seems to have happened the last few years.

Again, not arguing with you statistically, just that I don't think they should be the end-all/be-all way to evaluate a player.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:49 AM ET
You asked me if I watched the games, but you didn't even watch the games from this week. Or you're so deep in denial you can't admit that Elliott had to get a piece of Pulock's shot.

I wonder if there are Buffalo fans telling themselves Carter Hutton is having a good season.

- Feanor


That was about as heavy and well-placed as a shot could be. Add a partial screen in there and it's far from a stoppable shot. Sometimes you tip your hat to the shooter. To me, that was the case on the Pulock goal. He played deep in his net, but otherwise, I can't put the bulk of the blame on him.

There have been far more egregious and way softer goals given up by both goalies which have cost us games. Not sure why you're dying on the Elliott hill.
Ftown19125
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 09.17.2013

Feb 14 @ 9:49 AM ET
yeah there's zero chance that if hart has shown he's the better goalie by season's end, and the flyers make the playoffs, that they should start elliott because he has playoff experience. totally disagree with that.
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Feb 14 @ 9:49 AM ET
Not sure how that works when he's ranked 44th out of 52 goalies to have played 20 games.
- Feanor


Well how it works is that there have been some games where the team didn’t show up in front of him. Thereby completely cooking his stats when he’s pulled. Even harts stats look average because of the games where he’s been pulled after giving up multiples in the first. I still consider that he’s been pretty good for a kid.

guarantee you Toronto would kill to have had Elliott backing up Andersen this year.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 9:52 AM ET
yeah there's zero chance that if hart has shown he's the better goalie by season's end, and the flyers make the playoffs, that they should start elliott because he has playoff experience. totally disagree with that.
- Ftown19125


I agree. If you never play the guy in the playoff because of lack of experience, then he'll never get any playoff experience, so you'll never play in in the playoffs....and the cycle repeats.

If he's better, he starts. If he falters, then you switch.
Ftown19125
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 09.17.2013

Feb 14 @ 9:55 AM ET
I agree. If you never play the guy in the playoff because of lack of experience, then he'll never get any playoff experience, so you'll never play in in the playoffs....and the cycle repeats.

If he's better, he starts. If he falters, then you switch.

- jmatchett383


exactly. gotta give the team the best chance to win, go with the guy that's been better during the season.
Big_E_88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Wilmington, DE
Joined: 01.17.2014

Feb 14 @ 9:55 AM ET
So just coming in to check the mood. How has PelleL31 been holding up? MJL keeping everyone in line?

Just because I have not been in much the last few seasons does not mean I have not been following the team....it just means I have been busy as hell. I do a lot of work around the burgeoning hemp industry. Actually have gotten to chit chat with Cote a few times at various hemp/cannabis conferences...he is a big advocate.

Anyway...so...I have been a flyers fan for decades but I have not lived in PA (grew up in central PA) since I was 18. So I have seen a lot of games live over the years...in DC, Columbus, Nashville...but I never have been to a home game. Kids are now 10 and 7 and so we're about to remedy that....just got tix for the March 29 game vs. the Pens. Why go small, right? Coming up from KY for the game and to hang in Philly for a few days see some historical stuff (oldest kid is into Alexander Hamilton, thanks to the broadway play soundtrack) and enjoy the game. So looking for recommendations on good neighborhoods for finding an Air B and B that are safe and close to the history and also provide a reasonable spot to access the Wells Fargo. Looking to take the Metro-Subway to the game. Any suggestions?

Is the Metro a good option for getting to the Wells Fargo? Is Passyunk square area a decent option? Been a long time since I have been in Philly at all...maybe 2001 for a Phish concert at the spectrum? Any ideas appreciated!

- Lexington Flyer


You picked a good one. My son is doing mites on ice at that game


Sorry, I'm from DE so can't really give any advice regarding your questions.
Feanor
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: DE
Joined: 02.13.2013

Feb 14 @ 9:58 AM ET
That was about as heavy and well-placed as a shot could be. Add a partial screen in there and it's far from a stoppable shot. Sometimes you tip your hat to the shooter. To me, that was the case on the Pulock goal. He played deep in his net, but otherwise, I can't put the bulk of the blame on him.

There have been far more egregious and way softer goals given up by both goalies which have cost us games. Not sure why you're dying on the Elliott hill.

- jmatchett383


Elliott's been mediocre at best this season. Stats and the eye test both agree. Hart has played far better in front of the same defense, which is why he's miles ahead in GSAx.

https://evolving-hockey.c...ull&std_gl_team=%22All%22

Sorry if my standards are a little higher than the $700K journeyman that Toronto just waived who has an almost identical GSAx to Elliott.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:06 AM ET
Elliott's been mediocre at best this season. Stats and the eye test both agree. Hart has played far better in front of the same defense, which is why he's miles ahead in GSAx.

https://evolving-hockey.c...ull&std_gl_team=%22All%22

Sorry if my standards are a little higher than the $700K journeyman that Toronto just waived.

- Feanor


As opposed to the $5M guy, who's 8 spots below Elliott in GSAx, that Toronto kept? Man, that Holtby guy must suck, too, he's 10 spots below sucky Elliott. And who's this loser Marc-Andre Fleury who's a whopping 13 spots behind terrible Elliott.

I guess Holtby, Fleury, and Anderson should all have been waived as well based on the GSAx link you just provided. Overpaid losers. I also wasn't aware that James Reimer is the best goalie in the NHL. Because stats.
wcorvette
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Joined: 10.03.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:09 AM ET
Sure do. I watch Elliott give up stoppable, back breaking goals over and over again.
- Feanor



14-7-4 for Elliot, with Hart out he went 4-1. Stats are stats but on most nights he has given his team a chance to win
Ftown19125
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 09.17.2013

Feb 14 @ 10:14 AM ET
14-7-4 for Elliot, with Hart out he went 4-1. Stats are stats but on most nights he has given his team a chance to win
- wcorvette


yup. there have been games where both goalies have been bad. some of those games the team was pathetic defensively as well. i think elliott has been fine overall.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:16 AM ET
yup. there have been games where both goalies have been bad. some of those games the team was pathetic defensively as well. i think elliott has been fine overall.
- Ftown19125


But d00d da statz
Feanor
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: DE
Joined: 02.13.2013

Feb 14 @ 10:18 AM ET
14-7-4 for Elliot, with Hart out he went 4-1. Stats are stats but on most nights he has given his team a chance to win
- wcorvette


Judging a goalie by whether the team wins is only about 30 years out of date.

The team has a winning record when Ghost plays so I guess he's having a good season, too.
Feanor
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: DE
Joined: 02.13.2013

Feb 14 @ 10:20 AM ET
As opposed to the $5M guy, who's 8 spots below Elliott in GSAx, that Toronto kept? Man, that Holtby guy must suck, too, he's 10 spots below sucky Elliott. And who's this loser Marc-Andre Fleury who's a whopping 13 spots behind terrible Elliott.
- jmatchett383


Holtby is having a really rough season. Did you somehow miss the Flyers lighting him up on Saturday?

Goalie performance can vary by a huge amount year to year, and a big salary does nothing to prevent that.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:22 AM ET
Remember when the Flyers almost signed Daniel Cleary and only didn't because he was using the Flyers as leverage?

God bless your black heart, Daniel Cleary.
xShoot4WarAmpsx
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joined: 06.25.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:22 AM ET
Marc-Andre Fleury was injured to start the 2016 playoffs. He played 2 games all playoff long.
- jmatchett383


Sorry wasnt Fleury, he was hurt. Zatkof played at least the 1st 2 games against the Rangers. I stopped after Game 2.
Tomahawk
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner Bandwagon
Joined: 02.04.2009

Feb 14 @ 10:24 AM ET
Hart has never played a playoff game. Start Elliott game 1 and let Hart adjust to the atmosphere.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx


If you haven't noticed yet, Hart is unflappable.
Bill Meltzer
Editor
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 07.13.2006

Feb 14 @ 10:27 AM ET
Sure would. In my opinion, they wanted to move Giroux back to wing and keep Laughton at wing. Frost played and in my opinion did not play well overall. So if he's not going to play, send him back.
- MJL


He played fine. Had two bad shifts in two games.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Feb 14 @ 10:28 AM ET
Sorry wasnt Fleury, he was hurt. Zatkof played at least the 1st 2 games against the Rangers. I stopped after Game 2.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx


Zatkoff played the first 2, then Murray took over the rest of the way except for Game 5of the ECF.

So no, Murray did not play any significant role in the 2016 Cup, and Zatkoff only played 2 games. He only got those 2 starts because Brayden Schenn injured Murray late in the season.
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