That is what I'm not sure about. Can a player with a M-NTC list Seattle or is there a specific rule against them doing that?

I suppose the Leafs would simply try to trade Holl to one of the team's not on his list if he reject Seattle.
- mjones242

Can't do that.

Agreed
- GreatGigInTheSky

It depends, are we taking on Pesce and DeMelo? Combined, they would cost less then Pietrangelo and would be really useful players for the Leafs.

Rielly - Pesce
Muzzin - DeMelo
Sandin/Lehtonen - Holl/Liljegren

Muzzin has mnc so he needs to be protect
- dmnted

No, we went through this earlier this week.

It converts to NTC for 2021-22, so technically they could expose him.

But they won't.

He can't, you're right, but the Leafs do already have two very good d-men in Rielly and Muzzin. So with the addition of Pietrangelo, the 3 of them combined do play an entire game.

That's why I'm on the side of Pietrangelo > 2 lesser guys.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Im of the variety that even split up, they can't present a competent blueline as a whole without dependable partners.

Rielly is the perfect example of that, i don't see him as ever having been able to play to his potential due to having never had a quality partner. He's always having to play his game with an added awareness to whom is on the other side.

Rielly, Petro, and Muzzin would form an incredible core for the defense that the Leafs could, hopefully, count on for several years.

I don't like the idea of riding Rielly with a 2nd pairing defender who has no business being on an elite team's 1st pair.

Remember, Jones and Werenski were playing 30+ mins a night in the playoffs and they were dominant. Savard followed with 25mins (which Muzzin can more than handle) and then Gavrikov, a rookie, was playing 23mins.

Columbus did not get bounced from the playoffs because of poor D. They have 3 guys who are excellent defenders and they ride that first pair hard. CBJ got bounced because they lacked the scoring depth to get over the hurdle (something the Leafs do have).

So yeah, I think Holl/Lehtonen/(player to be traded for later) should be decent enough as a 4D.
- mjones242

This is all true but CBJ didn’t have to add major pieces in a flat cap with no idea when or how quickly it will grow.

I think we’re underestimating how much things will improve with Barrie, Ceci gone and a very good guy in to play with Rielly and with the natural progression from Sandin.

If there’s a way, great. If not find the next best guy and we’ll be fine.

Erik Karlsson had big defensive shortcomings - but I don't think that anyone would argue that (pre injury) he wasn't a #1D
- MaximusAurelius

he did get poop on a lot..probably by roger who thinks Rielly is a #1

Karlson imo is in a different category...he was the only D like that, a notch above everyone else.. Rielly is not...hes good, but not considered the best

It's limited - 10 team no trade.

If it lowered his cap hit during negotiations, let's just live with it.
- Atomic Wedgie

But it didn't lower his CAP hit. His CAP is already max out to what a player of his caliber is worth.

Thankfully, it won't impede the Leafs in expansion draft. Hell, maybe Ron Francis even sees it and decides to select him because of it.

This is all true but CBJ didn’t have to add major pieces in a flat cap with no idea when or how quickly it will grow.

I think we’re underestimating how much things will improve with Barrie, Ceci gone and a very good guy in to play with Rielly and with the natural progression from Sandin.

If there’s a way, great. If not find the next best guy and we’ll be fine.
- Canada Cup

Forgive me for sounding pessimistic, but it's going to be next to impossible to upgrade from Barrie with his $2.75M cap hit.

My guess is we are going to miss him when he is gone.

Rielly, Petro, and Muzzin would form an incredible core for the defense that the Leafs could, hopefully, count on for several years.

I don't like the idea of riding Rielly with a 2nd pairing defender who has no business being on an elite team's 1st pair.

Remember, Jones and Werenski were playing 30+ mins a night in the playoffs and they were dominant. Savard followed with 25mins (which Muzzin can more than handle) and then Gavrikov, a rookie, was playing 23mins.

Columbus did not get bounced from the playoffs because of poor D. They have 3 guys who are excellent defenders and they ride that first pair hard. CBJ got bounced because they lacked the scoring depth to get over the hurdle (something the Leafs do have).

So yeah, I think Holl/Lehtonen/(player to be traded for later) should be decent enough as a 4D.
- mjones242

You look at Columbus, definitely beast mode top pair. I'm looking at the Dallas and Tampa's of the league.

Tampa always had Hedman. They've had moderate success with plugging in the Girardi's etc., they didn't look fully there until they built 3 dependable pairs... Even with all that offense up front.

Teams are making it deep by not having their eggs in one basket.

And I'm saying this without factoring in the off ice aspect of signing Pietrangelo. I do not think his contract will age well, giving a damn near 30 year old a max term deal is going to have ramifications even without adding his cap hit to a team that already has to many big ticket contracts. It's not going to be a good look when Rielly has to extend either.

You look at Columbus, definitely beast mode top pair. I'm looking at the Dallas and Tampa's of the league.

Tampa always had Hedman. They've had moderate success with plugging in the Girardi's etc., they didn't look fully there until they built 3 dependable pairs... Even with all that offense up front.

Teams are making it deep by not having their eggs in one basket.

And I'm saying this without factoring in the off ice aspect of signing Pietrangelo. I do not think his contract will age well, giving a damn near 30 year old a max term deal is going to have ramifications even without adding his cap hit to a team that already has to many big ticket contracts. It's not going to be a good look when Rielly has to extend either.
- joel878

I continue to stick to my delusions of Pietrangelo wanting a short term deal so that he can g o for max when the NHL economy improves.

Your suggestions that I get a grip on reality will fall upon my deaf ears, so don't even bother.

Growing up, he dreamed of playing for the Leafs. And he loves parades.

Can't do that.
- Atomic Wedgie

Can't do what? Players with M-NTC can't list Seattle?

I continue to stick to my delusions of Pietrangelo wanting a short term deal so that he can g o for max when the NHL economy improves.

Your suggestions that I get a grip on reality will fall upon my deaf ears, so don't even bother.

Growing up, he dreamed of playing for the Leafs. And he loves parades.
- Atomic Wedgie

Looool.

I'd give him his 9 million if it were for two years.

I don't see it. He's getting paid regardless.

Can't do what? Players with M-NTC can't list Seattle?
- mjones242

My understanding is that NTC (even full NTC) are irrelevant to the expansion draft.

Only players with NMC have to be protected.

Can't do what? Players with M-NTC can't list Seattle?
- mjones242

It doesn’t protect them from being selected in the expansion draft.

Can't do what? Players with M-NTC can't list Seattle?
- mjones242

Not for the expansion draft. If selected in the expansion draft, you aren't traded there.

It depends, are we taking on Pesce and DeMelo? Combined, they would cost less then Pietrangelo and would be really useful players for the Leafs.

Rielly - Pesce
Muzzin - DeMelo
Sandin/Lehtonen - Holl/Liljegren
- PatC80

Maybe go Pietrangelo and DeMelo?

(I'm assuming in every Pietrangelo to the Leafs scenario, Nylander is probably being traded. And also that DeMelo doesn't get that big of a contract $$$ wise.)

So-

Rielly-Pietrangelo
Muzzin-DeMelo
Dermott/Sandin/Liljegren/Lethonen

I don't hate that D core. I quite like it, actually.

Can't do what? Players with M-NTC can't list Seattle?
- mjones242

Correct.

Technically, it's not a trade - it's being claimed in an expansion draft.

This is all true but CBJ didn’t have to add major pieces in a flat cap with no idea when or how quickly it will grow.

I think we’re underestimating how much things will improve with Barrie, Ceci gone and a very good guy in to play with Rielly and with the natural progression from Sandin.

If there’s a way, great. If not find the next best guy and we’ll be fine.
- Canada Cup

CBJ would have to add major pieces to be a true contender -- they need a star forward. They're in the same predicament as we are but in reverse.

Nylander would be the domino to fall to allow the Leafs to balance their defense and forward groups with Petro.

Rielly is pretty great but he needs a legit top pairing guy to play with to give him some relief.

I get the whole addition by subtraction Barrie/Ceci angle... but I'm not convinced that Pesce/DeMelo (as an example) really puts this team over-the-top like a Petro can.

Correct.

Technically, it's not a trade - it's being claimed in an expansion draft.
- Atomic Wedgie

Gotcha! Thx!

Not for the expansion draft. If selected in the expansion draft, you aren't traded there.
- joel878

you're right... Players can't block being selected in the expansion draft, if they are left unprotected.. Only NMC are protected

Im of the variety that even split up, they can't present a competent blueline as a whole without dependable partners.

Rielly is the perfect example of that, i don't see him as ever having been able to play to his potential due to having never had a quality partner. He's always having to play his game with an added awareness to whom is on the other side.
- joel878

Rielly with Pietrangelo would be incredible, though. And Muzzin can make anyone look good playing with him. Look no further than Holl.

Have the kids and new guy learn and get better on the 3rd pairing.

I continue to stick to my delusions of Pietrangelo wanting a short term deal so that he can g o for max when the NHL economy improves.

Your suggestions that I get a grip on reality will fall upon my deaf ears, so don't even bother.

Growing up, he dreamed of playing for the Leafs. And he loves parades.
- Atomic Wedgie

Toronto does have a great Pride and santa claus parade.
Hoping the Raps get another shot at having a parade.

there are possibilities.

CBJ would have to add major pieces to be a true contender -- they need a star forward. They're in the same predicament as we are but in reverse.

Nylander would be the domino to fall to allow the Leafs to balance their defense and forward groups with Petro.

Rielly is pretty great but he needs a legit top pairing guy to play with to give him some relief.

I get the whole addition by subtraction Barrie/Ceci angle... but I'm not convinced that Pesce/DeMelo (as an example) really puts this team over-the-top like a Petro can.
- mjones242

CBJ probably isn't the best reference.

The year before they had Panarin and Duchene up front... They had an on point Bobrovsky between the pipes.

That beast mode top pair didn't carry them through...

Maybe go Pietrangelo and DeMelo?

(I'm assuming in every Pietrangelo to the Leafs scenario, Nylander is probably being traded. And also that DeMelo doesn't get that big of a contract $$$ wise.)

So-

Rielly-Pietrangelo
Muzzin-DeMelo
Dermott/Sandin/Liljegren/Lethonen

I don't hate that D core. I quite like it, actually.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Where is holl?
Dubi loves holl....for 4 more years.

Im of the variety that even split up, they can't present a competent blueline as a whole without dependable partners.

Rielly is the perfect example of that, i don't see him as ever having been able to play to his potential due to having never had a quality partner. He's always having to play his game with an added awareness to whom is on the other side.
- joel878

He just needs a stay at home guy, as old as Hainsey was at least he knew where to be in his own zone. We just need a younger version....whoever that’s going to be. And we need Rielly to be healthy and not hobbling around out there like an 80 year old.