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Forums :: Blog World :: Mike Augello: Leafs will have competition for Pietrangelo in free agent market
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winsix
Season Ticket Holder
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Manny's Musical Instruments and Accessories, Inc. NYC, circa summer of 70
Joined: 04.03.2016

Sep 24 @ 7:25 AM ET
Andreas Borgman
- TheMussel



MARIUSZ CZERKAWSKI
winsix
Season Ticket Holder
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Manny's Musical Instruments and Accessories, Inc. NYC, circa summer of 70
Joined: 04.03.2016

Sep 24 @ 7:39 AM ET
I hear what you are saying, but disagree completely. Almost every single free agent will choose Winnipeg if Winnipeg decides to back-up the Brinks truck to said players yard. And that applies to any team. If a team is willing to give the player the max contract and term, very few players would refuse regardless of what the city is... Even Buffalo. And a team in deperation mode will most certainly entertain doing just that.
- habman75


Winnipeg ownership group has very deep pockets, so if they really wanted to, could offer a significant contract to Pietrangelo. That said, not every player will sign with the team that offers the most cash. I would put Pietrangelo signing in Winnipeg or Buffalo as highly unlikely. Still think the Blues are his first choice, but we'll soon see.
Canada Cup
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Trump? He was just a coffee boy. None of us knew him., ON
Joined: 07.06.2007

Sep 24 @ 7:44 AM ET
He will never, ever sign there. They made it seem like he'll never go to Toronto but Winnipeg might be the top destination.

Have we heard ANYONE suggest he'd go to Winnipeg?

- RogerRoeper


Read the words. It makes sense that Winnipeg could make a push for him and they have the room. That makes one more team potentially bidding for him and that means the price moves up.

Maybe he decides he doesn’t want to play there. Maybe he decides he wants to play here for a price that works for us. The more teams that decide they want the top guy in the market, the more he is going to have to decide to leave money on the table to play here.

The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:10 AM ET
Food for thought.

Lebrun says to watch for the 'sign and trade' with AP. Says it was discussed with JT and SS when they were in the market.

Maybe an option in this scenario (with whoever acquires him) because Blues obtain an asset, new team gets significant cap savings, and AP gets an extra year.

Relationship with Blues and AP probably determines whether it happens.
Leafs43
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: ON
Joined: 06.16.2010

Sep 24 @ 8:15 AM ET
Food for thought.

Lebrun says to watch for the 'sign and trade' with AP. Says it was discussed with JT and SS when they were in the market.

Maybe an option in this scenario (with whoever acquires him) because Blues obtain an asset, new team gets significant cap savings, and AP gets an extra year.

Relationship with Blues and AP probably determines whether it happens.

- The Law


Why does new team get significant cap savings?

The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:18 AM ET
Why does new team get significant cap savings?
- Leafs43


For example JT ...add the 8th year (he'd be old and get less ...say 4 million)

current - 7 yr and 77 million ...AAV = 11

hypothetical - 8 yr and 81 million ...AAV = 10.125
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:22 AM ET
For example JT ...add the 8th year (he'd be old and get less ...say 4 million)

current - 7 yr and 77 million ...AAV = 11

hypothetical - 8 yr and 81 million ...AAV = 10.125

- The Law


I should add that with AP it could work out that way but the contract would probably be constructed differently due to escrow and buy-out stuff. IE. he'd take a smaller amount for year 8 in terms of value but I imagine his 8th year he'll still want heavy allocation of $$. Teams shouldn't have an issue with that.
MaximusAurelius
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Joseph Woll - starting goalie Leafs 2020-2021 season
Joined: 04.23.2012

Sep 24 @ 8:34 AM ET
Food for thought.

Lebrun says to watch for the 'sign and trade' with AP. Says it was discussed with JT and SS when they were in the market.

Maybe an option in this scenario (with whoever acquires him) because Blues obtain an asset, new team gets significant cap savings, and AP gets an extra year.

Relationship with Blues and AP probably determines whether it happens.

- The Law


I am not sure whether a 'sign and trade' is legal under the CBA.
To my understanding -- AP can only talk with St Louis right now (until he becomes UFA) - so officially Leafs cannot be involved in any contract talk.
Even if AP would negotiate the deal with Toronto 'via Stl' (stl management talking with leafs) -- St Louis at the moment of signing him to that deal, have a risk that the Leafs would 'back out' or renegotiate a potential deal. There is no way that Stl and Tor can put an trade agreement in place, contingent on AP signing a new deal. The moment AP signs that new deal with Stl, in principle Toronto holds all the cards (if Stl would not want him on that same deal).
And I am not sure whether a NTC/NMC is still part of the deal if AP would be dealt (I thought that it was only part of the agreement with the original team that signs the player to the contract; but that might have changed?).

The chances of a 'sign and trade' are approx 1%; and that's generous.
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:45 AM ET
I should add that with AP it could work out that way but the contract would probably be constructed differently due to escrow and buy-out stuff. IE. he'd take a smaller amount for year 8 in terms of value but I imagine his 8th year he'll still want heavy allocation of $$. Teams shouldn't have an issue with that.
- The Law



Brother, replying to yourself is a bad sign.. Also, Max says no. So,,, NO.
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:46 AM ET
I am not sure whether a 'sign and trade' is legal under the CBA.
To my understanding -- AP can only talk with St Louis right now (until he becomes UFA) - so officially Leafs cannot be involved in any contract talk.
Even if AP would negotiate the deal with Toronto 'via Stl' (stl management talking with leafs) -- St Louis at the moment of signing him to that deal, have a risk that the Leafs would 'back out' or renegotiate a potential deal. There is no way that Stl and Tor can put an trade agreement in place, contingent on AP signing a new deal. The moment AP signs that new deal with Stl, in principle Toronto holds all the cards (if Stl would not want him on that same deal).
And I am not sure whether a NTC/NMC is still part of the deal if AP would be dealt (I thought that it was only part of the agreement with the original team that signs the player to the contract; but that might have changed?).

The chances of a 'sign and trade' are approx 1%; and that's generous.

- MaximusAurelius


Don't shoot the messenger ...read his article.

AP, the Blues, and the New Team would have to all be on board with it. If they all were on board then I don't see any reason for it to be illegal. The 8th yr limit was instituted in the CBA by owners to allow teams a better shot of keeping their own. If the Blues felt good about a sign and trade then it lines up with the spirit of the CBA.

Blues allow New Team and AP to talk at a price. The price goes up if a deal is reached. If a deal is reached then Blues and AP sign new deal and Blues and New Team conclude trade simultaneously. Happens all the time in the legal world.
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:48 AM ET
Brother, replying to yourself is a bad sign.. Also, Max says no. So,,, NO.
- bixll


I cite the case of "Imasmart v. Youradumb 2020 Superior Court of Hockey Buzz" ....
Fakepartofme
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Right behind you, ON
Joined: 09.20.2010

Sep 24 @ 8:50 AM ET
Not sure what it is but no team gets their asses kissed like Winnipeg.
- RogerRoeper

Why couldnt the peg make a push for AP?
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:56 AM ET
Why couldnt the peg make a push for AP?
- Fakepartofme


They totally could and should. They're really thin on the blue line.

But, I suspect the thought is based on the classic words of The Weakerthans ...

The driver checks the mirror seven minutes late
The crowded riders' restlessness enunciates
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
The same route everyday
And in the turning lane
Someone's stalled again
He's talking to himself
And hears the price of gas repeat his phrase
I hate Winnipeg
senstroll
Location: New Fan, Needs to watch Ballet, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 24 @ 8:56 AM ET
this AP stuff is wild.
no idea what happens, but its fun to watch.

Leafs43
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: ON
Joined: 06.16.2010

Sep 24 @ 8:58 AM ET
For example JT ...add the 8th year (he'd be old and get less ...say 4 million)

current - 7 yr and 77 million ...AAV = 11

hypothetical - 8 yr and 81 million ...AAV = 10.125

- The Law


My worry is that "extra year will actually just be one more year at 8 mill.

Adding Pietrangelo is starting to seem more and more complicated/risky. (Was already complicated with the Leafs cap)

Pietrangelo sure he doesn't want a 2 year deal at 10 million? Could even go as high as 11... (Yes, I know he is sure)

mjones242
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Grimsby, ON
Joined: 06.22.2015

Sep 24 @ 8:58 AM ET
I am not sure whether a 'sign and trade' is legal under the CBA.
To my understanding -- AP can only talk with St Louis right now (until he becomes UFA) - so officially Leafs cannot be involved in any contract talk.
Even if AP would negotiate the deal with Toronto 'via Stl' (stl management talking with leafs) -- St Louis at the moment of signing him to that deal, have a risk that the Leafs would 'back out' or renegotiate a potential deal. There is no way that Stl and Tor can put an trade agreement in place, contingent on AP signing a new deal. The moment AP signs that new deal with Stl, in principle Toronto holds all the cards (if Stl would not want him on that same deal).
And I am not sure whether a NTC/NMC is still part of the deal if AP would be dealt (I thought that it was only part of the agreement with the original team that signs the player to the contract; but that might have changed?).

The chances of a 'sign and trade' are approx 1%; and that's generous.

- MaximusAurelius

mr.sir
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Vancouver Island, BC
Joined: 01.18.2015

Sep 24 @ 9:04 AM ET
Kerfoot and Dermott
for
Timmins and Jost

then.....

Johnsson, Andersen, Bracco, 5th
for
Pesce, Mrazek


finally.....

Savard, Jenner, Anderson
for
Nylander and Holl

Kyle wins GM of the year

Robertson Matthews Anderson
Hyman Tavares Marner
Engvall Jenner Mikheyev
Barabanov Jost Korshkov
( Spezza 🐐 )

Rielly Pesce
Muzzin Savard
Sandin Timmins
Lehtonen Liljegren

Mrazek
Campbell
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 9:06 AM ET
My worry is that "extra year will actually just be one more year at 8 mill.

Adding Pietrangelo is starting to seem more and more complicated/risky. (Was already complicated with the Leafs cap)

Pietrangelo sure he doesn't want a 2 year deal at 10 million? Could even go as high as 11... (Yes, I know he is sure)

- Leafs43


That's why I added that response to my own reply.

It wouldn't be that even though it may look like that on paper.

In reality it's total money and term that matters. Ignore the nuances of bonus and NMC for a moment.

So if the Blues have 8 x 8 on the table and that's what you're negotiating against then it's 8 years and 64 Milly. Leafs could do 7 x 9 to get to 63 million. Maybe that the number that works on 7 years.

Then the Agent and the Leafs and the Blues agree that they all like the idea of adding an 8th year to level out the numbers. Add an 8th year at 4 million if AP is willing to do that. The Blues get an asset or two via trade. AP gets his deal and helps his new team save some cap space and the Leafs gain about 750k in cap space.

it's not huge but it's something. Lebrun says Yzerman, Stamkos and teams were prepared to go that route and that it was part of the discussions with Tavares.

It's not as dramatic a thing as some (Max) make it sound. It'll happen if it makes sense for all 3 parties.

And sorry, to your point, the real money goes up by a smaller amount for year 8 but I bet the actual contract will show a big number in that last year to avoid escrow and maximize any buyout $$ for AP.
Canada Cup
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Trump? He was just a coffee boy. None of us knew him., ON
Joined: 07.06.2007

Sep 24 @ 9:06 AM ET
I am not sure whether a 'sign and trade' is legal under the CBA.
To my understanding -- AP can only talk with St Louis right now (until he becomes UFA) - so officially Leafs cannot be involved in any contract talk.
Even if AP would negotiate the deal with Toronto 'via Stl' (stl management talking with leafs) -- St Louis at the moment of signing him to that deal, have a risk that the Leafs would 'back out' or renegotiate a potential deal. There is no way that Stl and Tor can put an trade agreement in place, contingent on AP signing a new deal. The moment AP signs that new deal with Stl, in principle Toronto holds all the cards (if Stl would not want him on that same deal).
And I am not sure whether a NTC/NMC is still part of the deal if AP would be dealt (I thought that it was only part of the agreement with the original team that signs the player to the contract; but that might have changed?).

The chances of a 'sign and trade' are approx 1%; and that's generous.

- MaximusAurelius


There’s nothing that prevents this kind of deal. It’s only tampering if STL complains, not if they give permission.

Secondly, no GM is going to behave the way you describe. Reneging on a deal is going to undermine your credibility across the league and make future deals much more difficult.

The real issue is whether it is worth it to get a reduction in AAV in return for having a player who you can’t trade or buyout under contract until they’re 39.
mjones242
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Grimsby, ON
Joined: 06.22.2015

Sep 24 @ 9:06 AM ET
Kerfoot and Dermott
for
Timmins and Jost

then.....

Johnsson, Andersen, Bracco, 5th
for
Pesce, Mrazek


finally.....

Savard, Jenner, Anderson
for
Nylander and Holl

Kyle wins GM of the year

Robertson Matthews Anderson
Hyman Tavares Marner
Engvall Jenner Mikheyev
Barabanov Jost Korshkov
( Spezza 🐐 )

Rielly Pesce
Muzzin Savard
Sandin Timmins
Lehtonen Liljegren

Mrazek
Campbell

- mr.sir

Try as I might, I can't seem to find AP's name on your proposed roster.
mr.sir
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Vancouver Island, BC
Joined: 01.18.2015

Sep 24 @ 9:07 AM ET
Try as I might, I can't seem to find AP's name on your proposed roster.
- mjones242

Pesce+Savard > AP
Kinger34
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: We may have already seen Matthews at his potential - SMBDragon, ON
Joined: 07.04.2011

Sep 24 @ 9:11 AM ET


The chances of a 'sign and trade' are approx 1%; and that's generous.

- MaximusAurelius



You're a mathematician now?

You seem to talk in absolutes, and unless you have some insider information that others don't I don't know how you can justify your statements.

Yeseterday you spoke with certainty about how certain players felt about Babcock, a month ago you predicted that Muzzin had suffered a career ending injury.

This is the type of fodder that the haters on the board grab a hold of and troll on. You make Leafs fans look bad talking like this. You should stop.
The Law
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 01.29.2008

Sep 24 @ 9:13 AM ET
There’s nothing that prevents this kind of deal. It’s only tampering if STL complains, not if they give permission.

Secondly, no GM is going to behave the way you describe. Reneging on a deal is going to undermine your credibility across the league and make future deals much more difficult.

The real issue is whether it is worth it to get a reduction in AAV in return for having a player who you can’t trade or buyout under contract until they’re 39.

- Canada Cup


Max is currently researching his rebuttal.

I think New team can still buy out AP at any time. The heavy bonus in the final years is to ensure that he gets maximum cash from any buyout. Bonus $$ is protected from the buyout provisions. I don't believe it impacts the cap at all only the amount of cash that's clawed back. Leafs don't seem to give a poop about cash so I doubt it's an issue at all.

And I think he'd be 37 when the 8th year of his contract is beginning.
Aaron_85
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 04.22.2014

Sep 24 @ 9:15 AM ET
I thought i heard AP is stuck on bonuses late in the contract but it us like 7.7 per year to stay with the blues. Leafs can give the bonus and id ve content at 8 million a year.
Canada Cup
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Trump? He was just a coffee boy. None of us knew him., ON
Joined: 07.06.2007

Sep 24 @ 9:16 AM ET
Max is currently researching his rebuttal.

I think New team can still buy out AP at any time. The heavy bonus in the final years is to ensure that he gets maximum cash from any buyout. Bonus $$ is protected from the buyout provisions. I don't believe it impacts the cap at all only the amount of cash that's clawed back. Leafs don't seem to give a poop about cash so I doubt it's an issue at all.

And I think he'd be 37 when the 8th year of his contract is beginning.

- The Law


You’re right about the bouyout. It’s so he gets a significant cash payout. And I’ll split the difference on age. He turns 31 in January.
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