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Forums :: Blog World :: Anthony Travalgia: Unpacking a busy day in Winnipeg
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JetFuel
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 10.08.2019

Oct 13 @ 4:22 PM ET
totally agree - these are not the 'us against the world' underdogs that gelled so well a couple years ago. Each of those players has now been displaced by the same process that lead to them being exposed in the expansion draft -- they are nobodys again. Stone, Patches, Petro, Lehner, Deboer - all displace guys like Karlson, Marchesseault, Theodore, Fleury, Gallant. If they are not careful they will have a powder keg in their dressing room. One losing skid ignites the fuse.
- 2.0


They just don't look as good under Deboer as they did under Gallant, yes some different personnel in some spots but still they just don't look the same as they did earlier on.
Can't say I've watched a ton of there games and idk maybe Deboer has them playing a different system but they just don't seem as smothering or dangerous to me as they did before.
bennythehat
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 03.23.2015

Oct 13 @ 5:16 PM ET
Vegas was perceived to have marginal talent when they began play. As the seasons have gone by, they have added Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Stastny, and now Pieterangelo....so the expectations are totally different...
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 13 @ 5:19 PM ET
totally agree - these are not the 'us against the world' underdogs that gelled so well a couple years ago. Each of those players has now been displaced by the same process that lead to them being exposed in the expansion draft -- they are nobodys again. Stone, Patches, Petro, Lehner, Deboer - all displace guys like Karlson, Marchesseault, Theodore, Fleury, Gallant. If they are not careful they will have a powder keg in their dressing room. One losing skid ignites the fuse.
- 2.0

Losing a playoff series can also use ignite a fuse. I am not sure if you remember the 2018-19, end of the year presser, where Maurice spoke about "ruffled feathers".

As we keep hearing rumors about players being upset with their usage, I wonder how much relationship repair has been done between coaches and players.
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 13 @ 5:22 PM ET
Vegas was perceived to have marginal talent when they began play. As the seasons have gone by, they have added Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Stastny, and now Pieterangelo....so the expectations are totally different...
- bennythehat

The Vegas expansion draft should serve as a lesson to the other GM's, especially for the upcoming Seattle one. McPhee and McCrimmon were gifted so many draft picks and prospects in order for franchises to protect certain players. Without the treasure trove they received, they would not have been capable of assembling the team they currently have.
bennythehat
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 03.23.2015

Oct 13 @ 5:42 PM ET
The Vegas expansion draft should serve as a lesson to the other GM's, especially for the upcoming Seattle one. McPhee and McCrimmon were gifted so many draft picks and prospects in order for franchises to protect certain players. Without the treasure trove they received, they would not have been capable of assembling the team they currently have.
- TheUltimateJet


The wisdom of accumulating picks was known at the time....the fact that they did so well with other team's rejects was the surprise.
2.0
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Dauphin, MB
Joined: 09.11.2017

Oct 13 @ 7:10 PM ET
Losing a playoff series can also use ignite a fuse. I am not sure if you remember the 2018-19, end of the year presser, where Maurice spoke about "ruffled feathers".

As we keep hearing rumors about players being upset with their usage, I wonder how much relationship repair has been done between coaches and players.

- TheUltimateJet


absolutely agreed - it wasn't ruffled feathers it was more like a grenade. Jets had some significant locker room stuff that impacted (or still impacts) what they deliver on ice.

Buff was frustrated enough to call it a career, Hendricks was brought back for a stint, Trouba situation couldn't have helped moral. Myers, Chiarot, Armia departure also significantly changes the group dynamic. These are significant shifts and changes among others - it is not EAsports and cant plug and play players without managing people, personalites and everyday human issues.

(really not trying to say any of the names I mention are flawed people - just people being people) Jets let Hayes go without fighting to retain him and demoted him to 3rd line duty presumably in response to whatever was going on (if i guess it was likely something with his linemates), Bringing in Bitetto was for a purpose which was to bring a reality check, not rushing more youth into a difficult, some say poisoned room. There is no instant chemistry fix - it is about steady leadership which should transition to Scheifele before the end of Wheelers' contract.

I called out Maurice at the start of 2019/20 that this was another put up or shut up (and move along) year. He is a veteran coach who should be more equipped than the average coach to deal with dressing room issues. The jets got good results this year. Not always pretty but they got through it and the players responded to his message to stay in the fight by staying in the fight.

All players are successful due to a certain amount of attitude and stuborness that has served them well to get to the NHL and it takes a different level of leadership to bring it together - 23 guys with opinions and all convinced they know the best way forward. Think of the dynamics we see on this board with about the same number of regular contributors. The difference is we don't have to live and work together and we can get away from it by checking twitter instead.

In a strange way the Little injury was probably something to build around also as it would be a common bond. The battle they put up through the year and the way Sheif and Laine went down in the playoffs are positives. Big win of Vezina for Helly is a trophy the whole team can feel good about.

I think we are past the worst of it - Vegas is cracking open pandora's box of troubles.
jetsnation
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 02.11.2015

Oct 14 @ 8:48 AM ET
2020-21 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2021-22 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2022-23 $1 M salary plus $7 M SB
2023-24 $4.3 M salary plus $8 M SB
2024-25 $4.5 M salary plus $8 M SB
2025-26 $4 M salary plus $6 M SB
2026-27 $8.8 M salary

Finally has some time to look at that Pietro contract. It doesn't leave a lot of room for a buyout because of very minimum cap relief ( except in the final year). If things go horribly wrong with his play it will cause cap problems for years. A top-five defenseman but there is still a lot of risk in this contract. Low front years are designed to cover off Fleury.

Interesting that a month ago there were articles implying Pietro was looking for a front-loaded contract.
bennythehat
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 03.23.2015

Oct 14 @ 9:56 AM ET
2020-21 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2021-22 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2022-23 $1 M salary plus $7 M SB
2023-24 $4.3 M salary plus $8 M SB
2024-25 $4.5 M salary plus $8 M SB
2025-26 $4 M salary plus $6 M SB
2026-27 $8.8 M salary

Finally has some time to look at that Pietro contract. It doesn't leave a lot of room for a buyout because of very minimum cap relief ( except in the final year). If things go horribly wrong with his play it will cause cap problems for years. A top-five defenseman but there is still a lot of risk in this contract. Low front years are designed to cover off Fleury.

Interesting that a month ago there were articles implying Pietro was looking for a front-loaded contract.

- jetsnation


Well....it's quite a contract for a guy who (as someone said) may not be better than Nate Schmidt....
JetFuel
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 10.08.2019

Oct 14 @ 10:45 AM ET
2020-21 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2021-22 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2022-23 $1 M salary plus $7 M SB
2023-24 $4.3 M salary plus $8 M SB
2024-25 $4.5 M salary plus $8 M SB
2025-26 $4 M salary plus $6 M SB
2026-27 $8.8 M salary

Finally has some time to look at that Pietro contract. It doesn't leave a lot of room for a buyout because of very minimum cap relief ( except in the final year). If things go horribly wrong with his play it will cause cap problems for years. A top-five defenseman but there is still a lot of risk in this contract. Low front years are designed to cover off Fleury.

Interesting that a month ago there were articles implying Pietro was looking for a front-loaded contract.

- jetsnation


Yeah its definitely not the contract I was hearing for the last month that Pietrangelo was apparently wanting.
bikeguy99
New Jersey Devils
Joined: 09.05.2017

Oct 14 @ 11:27 AM ET
Take coaching out as a factor and look at Vegas and Colorado rosters.
The Jets have better goaltending then both.
They also have a better top 6 then both
Bottom 6 is at best even
Defense is where the Jets are the weakest. But that's mostly because they don't have a true number 1 dman.

So yes the Jets are comparable to both Vegas/Colorado player wise. Now bring coaching into it and the Jets are the worst of the 3.

- BWJumper


The defense isn't comparable, and that is the big difference maker. I'd take Scheiffs/Stats over Karlsson/Smith, Two great goalies (ill give Helle a slight edge), but in no way can you compare RW's. Stone is an absolute beast who trumps Laine anyday. Then they still have Marchy/Tuch who can provide some scoring. Wheeler is great but his time is numbered. Jets have better LW's.

So on paper, the defense is the only glaring difference, and RW's to a lesser extent. But when you watch Vegas play, they simply outskate and outwork everyone. And ya, Colarado is spoiled with high end talent. Don't be surprised if they add one of Hoffman/Dadanov, and Vatanen to their D core. They have money to spend and players are lined up for short term deals with that club.
bikeguy99
New Jersey Devils
Joined: 09.05.2017

Oct 14 @ 11:29 AM ET
2020-21 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2021-22 $2 M salary plus $3 M SB
2022-23 $1 M salary plus $7 M SB
2023-24 $4.3 M salary plus $8 M SB
2024-25 $4.5 M salary plus $8 M SB
2025-26 $4 M salary plus $6 M SB
2026-27 $8.8 M salary

Finally has some time to look at that Pietro contract. It doesn't leave a lot of room for a buyout because of very minimum cap relief ( except in the final year). If things go horribly wrong with his play it will cause cap problems for years. A top-five defenseman but there is still a lot of risk in this contract. Low front years are designed to cover off Fleury.

Interesting that a month ago there were articles implying Pietro was looking for a front-loaded contract.

- jetsnation


Supposedly (according to sportsnet), his 7 year deal clears more money after tax, then the same AAV over 8 years if he stayed in Stl. Something needs to be done to level the playing field. Dallar is running away with cheap contracts because it puts the same $$$ in the players pockets at the end of the day.
jetsnation
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 02.11.2015

Oct 14 @ 12:56 PM ET
Supposedly (according to sportsnet), his 7 year deal clears more money after tax, then the same AAV over 8 years if he stayed in Stl. Something needs to be done to level the playing field. Dallar is running away with cheap contracts because it puts the same $$$ in the players pockets at the end of the day.
- bikeguy99


I think it is a factor that the NHL is trying to find ways to address. It's not an easy thing to do. It's not a good thing for the league if the Cup keeps going to lower tax jurisdictions. Cup Final this year was proof that it is starting to happen.
BWJumper
Winnipeg Jets
Location: MB
Joined: 01.26.2019

Oct 14 @ 2:13 PM ET
The defense isn't comparable, and that is the big difference maker. I'd take Scheiffs/Stats over Karlsson/Smith, Two great goalies (ill give Helle a slight edge), but in no way can you compare RW's. Stone is an absolute beast who trumps Laine anyday. Then they still have Marchy/Tuch who can provide some scoring. Wheeler is great but his time is numbered. Jets have better LW's.

So on paper, the defense is the only glaring difference, and RW's to a lesser extent. But when you watch Vegas play, they simply outskate and outwork everyone. And ya, Colarado is spoiled with high end talent. Don't be surprised if they add one of Hoffman/Dadanov, and Vatanen to their D core. They have money to spend and players are lined up for short term deals with that club.

- bikeguy99


Wow slight edge in goaltending how generous. The way Vegas plays is a coaching factor not a team factor.

Also please don't make Colorado and Winnipeg comparisons with players they don't even have signed to the team.
bikeguy99
New Jersey Devils
Joined: 09.05.2017

Oct 14 @ 2:42 PM ET
Wow slight edge in goaltending how generous. The way Vegas plays is a coaching factor not a team factor.

Also please don't make Colorado and Winnipeg comparisons with players they don't even have signed to the team.

- BWJumper


Didn't mean to offend you bud. If you feel the only difference in those clubs is coaching, that's quite an interesting take. You think Laine is as effective as Stone? And yes, slight edge in net. Helle deserved the vezina, he was the best goalie. But it wasn't by a landslide, and the Lehner/Fleury duo is a very solid pairing in net.

I think the Jets are a good team, and Statsny absolutely takes a major burden off the 2C role. We all watched Lowry log big minutes, and clearly he wasn't the answer. Good shutdown and P.K guy that hits to hurt, but if he is playing north of 10 minutes a night, the jets are in trouble.

As for comparing Col to Winnipeg. It is lopsided. They are already better in every position except in net. They added Saad, and yes, likely one more piece will be added before the puck drops. Don't be surprised if Colorado add another piece before puck drops.
BWJumper
Winnipeg Jets
Location: MB
Joined: 01.26.2019

Oct 14 @ 3:32 PM ET
Didn't mean to offend you bud. If you feel the only difference in those clubs is coaching, that's quite an interesting take. You think Laine is as effective as Stone? And yes, slight edge in net. Helle deserved the vezina, he was the best goalie. But it wasn't by a landslide, and the Lehner/Fleury duo is a very solid pairing in net.

I think the Jets are a good team, and Statsny absolutely takes a major burden off the 2C role. We all watched Lowry log big minutes, and clearly he wasn't the answer. Good shutdown and P.K guy that hits to hurt, but if he is playing north of 10 minutes a night, the jets are in trouble.

As for comparing Col to Winnipeg. It is lopsided. They are already better in every position except in net. They added Saad, and yes, likely one more piece will be added before the puck drops. Don't be surprised if Colorado add another piece before puck drops.

- bikeguy99


You posted that 4 of the top 6 players the Jets are better yet because when comparing 60 pt Stone (who plays great defensive hockey) is better than pt per game Laine that somehow tilts the favour in Vegas direction for forwards overall. I'd say no.
Vegas is running McNabb and Martinez on LD while the Jets have Morrissey and Forbort that's at best even. They lose the RD side.
So overall if the Jets are better in goal have better forwards and half their defense is even then yes the Jets have better personnel.

The Jets have been playing Detroit level hockey for the past year and half so I don't think it's a stretch to call out coaching for the Jets lack of success with their roster.
jetsnation
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 02.11.2015

Oct 14 @ 5:55 PM ET
You posted that 4 of the top 6 players the Jets are better yet because when comparing 60 pt Stone (who plays great defensive hockey) is better than pt per game Laine that somehow tilts the favour in Vegas direction for forwards overall. I'd say no.
Vegas is running McNabb and Martinez on LD while the Jets have Morrissey and Forbort that's at best even. They lose the RD side.
So overall if the Jets are better in goal have better forwards and half their defense is even then yes the Jets have better personnel.

The Jets have been playing Detroit level hockey for the past year and half so I don't think it's a stretch to call out coaching for the Jets lack of success with their roster.

- BWJumper


A couple of points of clarification here.

1) It would be a gross exaggeration to say that the Jets played Detroit level hockey last season. Jets made the playoffs despite losing Buff and having a rash of injuries. I think they may have been the most injured of any team last season if you include Buff ( not included in the following link ). Check out the difference between the Jets and Detroit. Winnipeg and Pitts did extremely well considering the circumstances.

https://twitter.com/ManGa...38240445056122880/photo/1

2) Fobort is not our second best LHD. That would be Beaulieu who will be paired with Pionk unless there is some trade to come that changes that. Fobort is nothing but a depth pickup.
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 14 @ 6:46 PM ET
A couple of points of clarification here.

1) It would be a gross exaggeration to say that the Jets played Detroit level hockey last season. Jets made the playoffs despite losing Buff and having a rash of injuries. I think they may have been the most injured of any team last season if you include Buff ( not included in the following link ). Check out the difference between the Jets and Detroit. Winnipeg and Pitts did extremely well considering the circumstances.

https://twitter.com/ManGa...38240445056122880/photo/1

2) Fobort is not our second best LHD. That would be Beaulieu who will be paired with Pionk unless there is some trade to come that changes that. Fobort is nothing but a depth pickup.

- jetsnation



Only real point to make is this: in 2011 the Jets drafted 7th overall, in 2020 they drafted 10th overall. If Chevy fans call moving down three positions progress, than so be it, I guess we will have to wait For at least another 15 years to do something special!
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 14 @ 6:50 PM ET
A couple of points of clarification here.

1) It would be a gross exaggeration to say that the Jets played Detroit level hockey last season. Jets made the playoffs despite losing Buff and having a rash of injuries. I think they may have been the most injured of any team last season if you include Buff ( not included in the following link ). Check out the difference between the Jets and Detroit. Winnipeg and Pitts did extremely well considering the circumstances.

https://twitter.com/ManGa...38240445056122880/photo/1

2) Fobort is not our second best LHD. That would be Beaulieu who will be paired with Pionk unless there is some trade to come that changes that. Fobort is nothing but a depth pickup.

- jetsnation


I am actually really happy with the Forbort signing! He played the majority of the season with Doughty last year. He is going to be like Ben Chariot, allowing his defensive partners to play their game.

I think he will be in our top four mostly playing with Pionk.
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 14 @ 7:05 PM ET
absolutely agreed - it wasn't ruffled feathers it was more like a grenade. Jets had some significant locker room stuff that impacted (or still impacts) what they deliver on ice.

Buff was frustrated enough to call it a career, Hendricks was brought back for a stint, Trouba situation couldn't have helped moral. Myers, Chiarot, Armia departure also significantly changes the group dynamic. These are significant shifts and changes among others - it is not EAsports and cant plug and play players without managing people, personalites and everyday human issues.

(really not trying to say any of the names I mention are flawed people - just people being people) Jets let Hayes go without fighting to retain him and demoted him to 3rd line duty presumably in response to whatever was going on (if i guess it was likely something with his linemates), Bringing in Bitetto was for a purpose which was to bring a reality check, not rushing more youth into a difficult, some say poisoned room. There is no instant chemistry fix - it is about steady leadership which should transition to Scheifele before the end of Wheelers' contract.

I called out Maurice at the start of 2019/20 that this was another put up or shut up (and move along) year. He is a veteran coach who should be more equipped than the average coach to deal with dressing room issues. The jets got good results this year. Not always pretty but they got through it and the players responded to his message to stay in the fight by staying in the fight.

All players are successful due to a certain amount of attitude and stuborness that has served them well to get to the NHL and it takes a different level of leadership to bring it together - 23 guys with opinions and all convinced they know the best way forward. Think of the dynamics we see on this board with about the same number of regular contributors. The difference is we don't have to live and work together and we can get away from it by checking twitter instead.

In a strange way the Little injury was probably something to build around also as it would be a common bond. The battle they put up through the year and the way Sheif and Laine went down in the playoffs are positives. Big win of Vezina for Helly is a trophy the whole team can feel good about.

I think we are past the worst of it - Vegas is cracking open pandora's box of troubles.

- 2.0


I really like this post. We all have our own opinions and life situations, which do lead us to having differing views about hockey. That is one of the reasons I ask lots of questions to clarify what people think and believe. i always like coming on here to get various hockey perspectives.

Also man, I wanted to say sorry if upset you earlier this week.
BWJumper
Winnipeg Jets
Location: MB
Joined: 01.26.2019

Oct 14 @ 8:08 PM ET
A couple of points of clarification here.

1) It would be a gross exaggeration to say that the Jets played Detroit level hockey last season. Jets made the playoffs despite losing Buff and having a rash of injuries. I think they may have been the most injured of any team last season if you include Buff ( not included in the following link ). Check out the difference between the Jets and Detroit. Winnipeg and Pitts did extremely well considering the circumstances.

https://twitter.com/ManGa...38240445056122880/photo/1

2) Fobort is not our second best LHD. That would be Beaulieu who will be paired with Pionk unless there is some trade to come that changes that. Fobort is nothing but a depth pickup.

- jetsnation



1.I hate to break it to you, but it's not an exaggeration
January 1 2019-March 11 2020 XGF%

31 Detroit 44.48%
30 Winnipeg 45.7%

2.Tell LA who had Forbort playing with Doughty that he's not top 4.
jetsnation
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 02.11.2015

Oct 14 @ 8:11 PM ET
Only real point to make is this: in 2011 the Jets drafted 7th overall, in 2020 they drafted 10th overall. If Chevy fans call moving down three positions progress, than so be it, I guess we will have to wait For at least another 15 years to do something special!
- TheUltimateJet



Let's get some accuracy on here....

Despite all the injuries and Buff departure, in 2020 the Jets finished approx 15th last year, and were on a roll at the time. My guess is that a top 12 finish was in the cards before Covid hit.

In 2018-18 they were top 10 also in an injury-filled year.

In 2017-18 they were 2nd in a relatively healthy year.

I'd say that was very good progress from 2011. I'm sure you'll find a way to blame on the injuries on Maurice and say that his system is the cause of the injuries.



jetsnation
Winnipeg Jets
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: 02.11.2015

Oct 14 @ 8:16 PM ET
1.I hate to break it to you, but it's not an exaggeration
January 1 2019-March 11 2020 XGF%

31 Detroit 44.48%
30 Winnipeg 45.7%

2.Tell LA who had Forbort playing with Doughty that he's not top 4.

.

- BWJumper


XGF%. who the hell cares about that? Why not just dredge up some stat about how many times the Jets fell on the ice. I'm sure you would win that one with Perreault falling three times a shift

Fobort played with Drew 37% of the time. That doesn't make him his partner although to be fair he was injured a lot. Take a look at LAK defense. Even Niku would have made the 2nd pairing. Nonetheless, I hope he plays well and proves me wrong. I say he's a third pairing Dman.
BWJumper
Winnipeg Jets
Location: MB
Joined: 01.26.2019

Oct 14 @ 8:55 PM ET
XGF%. who the hell cares about that? Why not just dredge up some stat about how many times the Jets fell on the ice. I'm sure you would win that one with Perreault falling three times a shift

Fobort played with Drew 37% of the time. That doesn't make him his partner although to be fair he was injured a lot. Take a look at LAK defense. Even Niku would have made the 2nd pairing. Nonetheless, I hope he plays well and proves me wrong. I say he's a third pairing Dman.

- jetsnation


Every NHL team that have an analytics department

bikeguy will appreciate this: number 1 last year was Vegas
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 14 @ 9:10 PM ET
XGF%. who the hell cares about that? Why not just dredge up some stat about how many times the Jets fell on the ice. I'm sure you would win that one with Perreault falling three times a shift

Fobort played with Drew 37% of the time. That doesn't make him his partner although to be fair he was injured a lot. Take a look at LAK defense. Even Niku would have made the 2nd pairing. Nonetheless, I hope he plays well and proves me wrong. I say he's a third pairing Dman.

- jetsnation

37% makes sense. In order for Forbort to play 100% of the time with Doughty would mean that he was on the first power play and penalty killing units. It would also mean that he was put out on four on four situations, which would not play to Forborts strengths.

Like I said earlier this is a good signing and he will play with Pionk. He has been training with Pionk and Sandberg all off-season.
TheUltimateJet
Winnipeg Jets
Joined: 07.16.2013

Oct 14 @ 9:31 PM ET
Let's get some accuracy on here....

Despite all the injuries and Buff departure, in 2020 the Jets finished approx 15th last year, and were on a roll at the time. My guess is that a top 12 finish was in the cards before Covid hit.

In 2018-18 they were top 10 also in an injury-filled year.

In 2017-18 they were 2nd in a relatively healthy year.

I'd say that was very good progress from 2011. I'm sure you'll find a way to blame on the injuries on Maurice and say that his system is the cause of the injuries.

- jetsnation

Your opinion is that Chevy drafts well. I agree that he does draft well in the first round.

We disagree on on how well he drafts after the first round. We are entitled to our opinions. I just wish the Jets drafted as well as Tampa Bay after the first round. You are content with it and that is okay.

Your opinion is that Maurice is developing the players that Chevy drafts is great. When talk about how picks drafted outside the first round are developing you blame the players for not taking the next step. The same players that Chevy carefully scouted and drafted. When I speak of giving players that Chevy drafted after the first round a chance, again you blame the players defending Maurice, well not critically looking at the process that Chevy uses to scout and draft these players.

When I say maybe we should look at trading players, you say no, because they are too valuable. You say we need to improve but we should stay on the same course.

You make many circular arguments that do not go anywhere.
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