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Forums :: Blog World :: Ryan Wilson: Penguins miss out on buyer's market
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Ryan Wilson
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Rochester, NY
Joined: 06.13.2013

Oct 13 @ 11:26 AM ET
Ryan Wilson: Penguins miss out on buyer's market Penguins miss out on buyer's market
PaulSTACKSny
Pittsburgh Penguins
Joined: 08.14.2020

Oct 13 @ 11:41 AM ET
Although this team may not be as bad as you're advertising with this post, it's still trending down and that's a fact.
Jackie Daytona
Location: PRO Scout
Joined: 10.09.2020

Oct 13 @ 11:54 AM ET
It seems the time has arrived to begin a rebuild. Unfortunately its a terrible time to rebuild. The contract value of the best players will inhibit appropriate returns due to the pandemic's impact on teams finances and payrolls.
j.boyd919
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Tampa, FL
Joined: 06.14.2011

Oct 13 @ 12:05 PM ET
It seems the time has arrived to begin a rebuild. Unfortunately its a terrible time to rebuild. The contract value of the best players will inhibit appropriate returns due to the pandemic's impact on teams finances and payrolls.
- Jackie Daytona


Nah. The rebuild starts when Sid and Geno hang em up. Keep the team competitive for the HOFers to go off into the sunset. Rebuild after. Sid and Geno deserve it.
[email protected]otmail.ca
Pittsburgh Penguins
Joined: 12.21.2019

Oct 13 @ 12:05 PM ET
I agree with Ryan.
Jr has very little understanding of the market, and players value. It seems as though he literally has no plan and just makes trades for the sake of it and hopes it hits. There is no plan.
I’m an outsider and yet could see the maple leafs writing on the wall. They have to shed salary and bad. So why give up so much for Kapnanen. Wait. See what unfolds. It’s very frustrating to have no construction plans.
I mean just look at Matheson. Paying him 5.5 for the next 5 years, or getting Stecher at his newly signed contract. And getting similar results on ice.
He has very little vision. He gets hooked on players and then just does whatever it takes to get said player.
Guile
Joined: 03.04.2014

Oct 13 @ 12:12 PM ET
It seems the time has arrived to begin a rebuild. Unfortunately its a terrible time to rebuild. The contract value of the best players will inhibit appropriate returns due to the pandemic's impact on teams finances and payrolls.
- Jackie Daytona



Brand new account = troll account. Piss off to whatever team you actually support
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 12:20 PM ET
Hey Look

RW writes the SAME article where he pretends that:

Hornqvists contract was movable in full by adding a pick (ignoring the fact that almost no money has been movable this offseason on declining players AND Hornqvist's "NTC negotiated in good faith" probably would have required Horn to land in a good situation, not just anywhere

GMJR should have seen COVID coming and not signed or traded for players over the last 2 seasons while trying to compete and that would have left him with massive capspace this offseason (it wouldn't)

Players that signed value contracts would have chosen Pittsburgh over the places they eventually landed

Every team has a couple of "overpaid in hindsight" so by having these guys you aren't really at a competitive disadvantage

I swear I've read this blog before
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 12:24 PM ET
I agree with Ryan.
Jr has very little understanding of the market, and players value. It seems as though he literally has no plan and just makes trades for the sake of it and hopes it hits. There is no plan.
I’m an outsider and yet could see the maple leafs writing on the wall. They have to shed salary and bad. So why give up so much for Kapnanen. Wait. See what unfolds. It’s very frustrating to have no construction plans.
I mean just look at Matheson. Paying him 5.5 for the next 5 years, or getting Stecher at his newly signed contract. And getting similar results on ice.
He has very little vision. He gets hooked on players and then just does whatever it takes to get said player.

- [email protected]


Matheson vs Stetcher isn't one vs the other. You can have Stetcher but you'd still have Hornqvists boat anchor contract

If you want to have the debate of Horn and Stetcher for 7 Million OR Matheson and Sceviour for 6.1 Million, you can, but you can't cherry pick which player you would have had and pretending there was a way to get rid of the ones (and their capspace) you don't want

Sceviour can also be demoted for 300k and is gone after this year and there are plenty more forwards available to replace him than are defenseman. Horn costs 5.3 million to put in the pressbox and 4.4 million to send to Wilkes Barrie for 3 more years

As for "No Plan" GMJR said at the end of the season, he wanted speed and youth

Which player that he's brought on and/or removed doesn't fit that part?
Crushers68
New Jersey Devils
Location: Hilton Head Island, SC
Joined: 02.17.2009

Oct 13 @ 12:27 PM ET
No more Jack Johnson, so there's a yuge plus! Also, you now get to play against him numerous times a year when playing the Rags. Sounds like a successful off season to me
HockeyPrick
Pittsburgh Penguins
Joined: 02.06.2018

Oct 13 @ 12:27 PM ET
These posts looking at what FAs signed for and saying "Oh the Penguins could've signed them" is ridiculous. Maybe those players didn't want to sign here. If they did maybe they wanted to sign for more money. Most FAs going for short term deals wanted a top 6 spot and they would not get that here.

You say we overpaid for to get rid of Hornqvist and then give the example of Tyler Johnson. A more useful player on a similar contract that literally could not be traded to a single NHL team. To get rid of an aging physical player like Hornqvist wasn't going to happen unless we took back some crap. We needed more crap at defense then forward.

Andreas Johnnson plays the wrong side of the ice to be useful here and has gotten through a full season once. His value just isn't as high as Kapanen's. You know how I know? Because if the Leafs could've gotten a 1st or 2nd round pick from any other team they would've done that trade, and it did not happen. Maybe the Pens could've gotten Kapenen for a 2nd instead of 1st, but they certainly weren't getting him for a 3rd with many other teams interested.

As every Pens fan can see we are playing for the next 2 years. Every contract signed long term or draft pick in the short term does not matter. We are going to eat it and eat it hard after that. And, that is fine to get the next crop of top picks.
ddMoose
Colorado Avalanche
Joined: 08.27.2020

Oct 13 @ 12:43 PM ET
Although this team may not be as bad as you're advertising with this post, it's still trending down and that's a fact.
- PaulSTACKSny


Ryan Wilson is the kind of person that wins the lottery and then has a total meltdown over paying the taxes on it instead of celebrating.
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 12:54 PM ET
If we're talking about capspace

Hornqvist 5.3
Johnson 3.25
Bjugstad 4.1

vs

Matheson 4.8
Kapanen 3.2
Sceviour 1.2
(JJ off the team) 1.1
(Bjugstad off the team) 2.0

Pick a group, They both cost the same money
5on1Powerplay
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: PA
Joined: 06.24.2017

Oct 13 @ 12:59 PM ET
These posts looking at what FAs signed for and saying "Oh the Penguins could've signed them" is ridiculous. Maybe those players didn't want to sign here. If they did maybe they wanted to sign for more money. Most FAs going for short term deals wanted a top 6 spot and they would not get that here.

You say we overpaid for to get rid of Hornqvist and then give the example of Tyler Johnson. A more useful player on a similar contract that literally could not be traded to a single NHL team. To get rid of an aging physical player like Hornqvist wasn't going to happen unless we took back some crap. We needed more crap at defense then forward.

Andreas Johnnson plays the wrong side of the ice to be useful here and has gotten through a full season once. His value just isn't as high as Kapanen's. You know how I know? Because if the Leafs could've gotten a 1st or 2nd round pick from any other team they would've done that trade, and it did not happen. Maybe the Pens could've gotten Kapenen for a 2nd instead of 1st, but they certainly weren't getting him for a 3rd with many other teams interested.

As every Pens fan can see we are playing for the next 2 years. Every contract signed long term or draft pick in the short term does not matter. We are going to eat it and eat it hard after that. And, that is fine to get the next crop of top picks.

- Hockeywiener


Couldn't agree more. RW seems as out of touch as he thinks GMJR is most of the time. Sure its fun to speculate on signing this player or that player but maybe Pittsburgh isn't as desirable of a destination as he thinks. I think Hornqvist was traded a year too late. I don't understand the outrage at giving up Hallander, not exactly like he's lighting up the Swedish leagues.
i'mjustafan
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: United States, PA
Joined: 05.15.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:01 PM ET
i dont think it would have mattered who was available. GMJR wanted kapanen. When he falls in love with a player, thats it. There is no talking him down. I have read where he makes great deals, fair deals. No....he just makes deals. 11 players currently on the roster did not play in the 2019 playoffs? almost 50% turn over in a year and a half?

I dont see where the success is with 2 scoring lines and 2 defense first lines. They were better when they could roll 3 scoring lines. The staal line in 2009 was that lightning in a bottle and who could forget the HBK line? But now its mccann-jankowski-rodrigues? I guess thats better than the 3rd line this last post season. The left over line because they didnt want to "break up the 4th line".
Victoro311
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: 06.17.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:09 PM ET
It seems the time has arrived to begin a rebuild. Unfortunately its a terrible time to rebuild. The contract value of the best players will inhibit appropriate returns due to the pandemic's impact on teams finances and payrolls.
- Jackie Daytona

I'll have one normal, human alcohol beer, please.
YouMeAndDupuis9
Pittsburgh Penguins
Joined: 06.09.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:18 PM ET
There is truth to the premise of this blog, but you cant talk about the buyers market and then also say we should have traded Hornqvist for no salary in return.

A) what team that needs a 33 year old Hornqvist has immense cap space
B) is Hornqvist going to be willing to waive his NTC to go there
C) Free Agency is a complete crapshoot, the fact that it turned out to be a buyers market (for the first time in like 10 years) is hindsight.
D) Putting all your chips into Free Agency is a very risky, and usually bad, strategy
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 1:26 PM ET
There is truth to the premise of this blog, but you cant talk about the buyers market and then also say we should have traded Hornqvist for no salary in return.

A) what team that needs a 33 year old Hornqvist has immense cap space
B) is Hornqvist going to be willing to waive his NTC to go there
C) Free Agency is a complete crapshoot, the fact that it turned out to be a buyers market (for the first time in like 10 years) is hindsight.
D) Putting all your chips into Free Agency is a very risky, and usually bad, strategy

- YouMeAndDupuis9


If we could have packaged #15 overall and ? to dump Hornqvist on a team he was willing to go to for no takebacks I would have done it 100%

*IF*

you told me a month later I could have had Nate Schmidt (assuming he waives his NTC to come here) for a 3rd and signed Toffoli for 4.25 Million for 4 years (Assuming he chooses Pit for the same money as MTL)

But while I'm at it I probably would have used my future telling abilities to just buy a lottery ticket and not given a F

I swear RW forgets or ignores there are 30 other GM's trying to do the exact same thing out here
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:27 PM ET
This blog basically summarized how a bunch of us around here feel.

Part of me thinks I'm being a whiney b!tch complaining when he did indeed get rid of JJ but the other part of me just thinks marginally to a lot better could of been done so far. I know people are tossing out maybe players dont want to go there but thats lazy. Of course not every player might want to go there but there are a lot of attractive things about going to Pittsburgh too (Sid, Geno, Mario, winning team, playoff team (should be), the fact players can go to a mall or resto without being overrun or mugged by fans, etc) so to paint every single free agent this year with the same brush is lazy. I have absolutely no way to prove that at least one of the many better signings so far would sign with the Pens....but....some things you just know.

Didnt ERod want to go back to Pitts taking a 1.3 mill salary cut and even after being barely played there? Cant be that bad of a place hahah
GalacticStone
Tampa Bay Lightning
Location: Sergachev's illegitimate son., FL
Joined: 01.29.2013

Oct 13 @ 1:30 PM ET
To Pittsburgh : Killorn, Johnson, 2021 2nd pick, 2021 4th pick, 2022 2nd pick

To Tampa : 2021 5th pick, 2022 3rd pick.

MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:31 PM ET
To Pittsburgh : Killorn, Johnson, 2021 2nd pick, 2021 4th pick, 2022 2nd pick

To Tampa : 2021 5th pick, 2022 3rd pick.

- GalacticStone


That thing called the salary cap might be a bit of problem in this one....but other than that, sign me up!
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 1:36 PM ET
This blog basically summarized how a bunch of us around here feel.

Part of me thinks I'm being a whiney b!tch complaining when he did indeed get rid of JJ but the other part of me just thinks marginally to a lot better could of been done so far. I know people are tossing out maybe players dont want to go there but thats lazy. Of course not every player might want to go there but there are a lot of attractive things about going to Pittsburgh too (Sid, Geno, Mario, winning team, playoff team (should be), the fact players can go to a mall or resto without being overrun or mugged by fans, etc) so to paint every single free agent this year with the same brush is lazy. I have absolutely no way to prove that at least one of the many better signings so far would sign with the Pens....but....some things you just know.

Didnt ERod want to go back to Pitts taking a 1.3 mill salary cut and even after being barely played there? Cant be that bad of a place hahah

- MattStrat


I tend to look at the 20 year history of the Penguins and despite having prime Sid and Prime Geno and a 1st class facility, and 2 different GM's and multiple coaches, How many players have taken discount short term deals to come here?

When I was a kid, it was constantly the Red Wings that would get those guys playing for peanuts in their twilight years, today it seems to be the Lightning

I mean, even after resurrecting his career and winning a Stanley Cup, Justin Schultz still commanded 5.5 over 3 years

I have no faith that Pittsburgh can entice a player to take a discount over multiple seasons, Maybe that's why GMJR trades for guys with term and control. Perhaps he knows something that we don't?
Victoro311
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: 06.17.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:37 PM ET
There is truth to the premise of this blog, but you cant talk about the buyers market and then also say we should have traded Hornqvist for no salary in return.

A) what team that needs a 33 year old Hornqvist has immense cap space
B) is Hornqvist going to be willing to waive his NTC to go there
C) Free Agency is a complete crapshoot, the fact that it turned out to be a buyers market (for the first time in like 10 years) is hindsight.
D) Putting all your chips into Free Agency is a very risky, and usually bad, strategy

- YouMeAndDupuis9

Hornqvist had a really bad contract, but is also the embodiment of what GM's overvalue and was still producing. I thought the NTC would be the thing that made him untraceable, but obviously that wasn't a sticking point given that all we had to do to get him to waive it was hurt his feelings (/s). Do I think we could have dumped him for a ton of cap space? No. But also given Rutherford's track record of fixating on players and his comments on Matheson, I do think there is a good possibility that he fixated on the idea of having that damn 5D that makes second pairing money that can jump up with injuries that he so loves, and I think he probably targeted Matheson specifically for that. Maybe there was a trade that netted us back more cap space, but that's neither here nor there anymore. So to your other points:

C) No hindsight about this one. We literally talked about this extensively in the lead up to free agency and we all pretty much called it due to the flat cap. This wasn't an excuse this year.

D) Yes. And because of previous moves/blunders we made, we pretty much had to do it. Its unfortunate, but this is also not a valid excuse given that the reason we are in the situation that we are is because Rutherford has gassed assets getting rid of bad contracts.

I think the poop thing about the Hornqvist situation is that even with taking Matheson back, in theory, it shouldn't be overly difficult to replace a third line winger that's slowing down, and we had enough cap space to do so after buying Johnson out. And we didn't. So we basically just traded Hornqvist to trade him, which was maybe not the worst move, but then we made it into a really bad move by not actually replacing his production.
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Oct 13 @ 1:38 PM ET
I tend to look at the 20 year history of the Penguins and despite having prime Sid and Prime Geno and a 1st class facility, and 2 different GM's and multiple coaches, How many players have taken discount short term deals to come here?

When I was a kid, it was constantly the Red Wings that would get those guys playing for peanuts in their twilight years, today it seems to be the Lightning

I mean, even after resurrecting his career and winning a Stanley Cup, Justin Schultz still commanded 5.5 over 3 years

I have no faith that Pittsburgh can entice a player to take a discount over multiple seasons, Maybe that's why GMJR trades for guys with term and control. Perhaps he knows something that we don't?

- TheGame316


Pretty much everyone is taking discounts...


EDIT:...this off season
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 1:41 PM ET
To Pittsburgh : Killorn, Johnson, 2021 2nd pick, 2021 4th pick, 2022 2nd pick

To Tampa : 2021 5th pick, 2022 3rd pick.

- GalacticStone


you retain 50% on Killorn/Johnson and we'll do it

We flip Petterson for a pick and we only add a million or so to our cap

Jake Sid Killorn
Zucker Malkin Rust
McCann Johnson Kap
Tanev Blueger Jank/ERod/Sceviour

Dumo Letang
Matheson Marino
Rikki Ruhwedal

Jarry
DeSmith

I'm in
TheGame316
Joined: 11.18.2008

Oct 13 @ 1:43 PM ET
Pretty much everyone is taking discounts...


EDIT:...this off season

- MattStrat


You think they'd take that discount to play in Pittsburgh over other suitors? History proves otherwise

Toffoli takes 4.25 to play in Montreal could be 5 million to play in Pittsburgh, because he probably has a 4.75 offer to play on his next choice
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