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Forums :: Blog World :: Ryan Wilson: I Ceci a trend
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Victoro311
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: 06.17.2014

Oct 18 @ 10:01 PM ET
I guess it depends on Rierden. Obviously Martin was the reason JJ was playing every night as he brought him all the way over to NY with him.
- 10inchTerror

I was banging the Martin is a huge issue drum since last season, and I do think he was a significant factor in Johnson’s preferred status on the team. But I think it’s naive to say Martin was the only reason JJ was held in such high esteem here given how much Rutherford gushed over him. It’s also important to keep in mind that Todd Rierden dragged the corpse of Brooks Orpik with him to Washington too, and that Orpik and Alzner’s roles on the Caps’ blue line was an issue there during his tenure. Rierden isn’t some bastion of sound decision making when it comes to picking the blue line lineup.

One of the most important jobs a GM has is saving coaches from themselves and not acquiring bad players the coaching staff will develop an affinity for. Fill the roster out with good players, and even if the coaching staff isn’t optimizing the nightly line up, the guy who’s undeservingly getting a sweater over a better player is still pretty good. Give coaches a handful of bad players that can take jerseys from better guys and you’re playing with fire.
10inchTerror
Joined: 10.13.2019

Oct 18 @ 10:07 PM ET
I was banging the Martin is a huge issue drum since last season, and I do think he was a significant factor in Johnson’s preferred status on the team. But I think it’s naive to say Martin was the only reason JJ was held in such high esteem here given how much Rutherford gushed over him. It’s also important to keep in mind that Todd Rierden dragged the corpse of Brooks Orpik with him to Washington too, and that Orpik and Alzner’s roles on the Caps’ blue line was an issue there during his tenure. Rierden isn’t some bastion of sound decision making when it comes to picking the blue line lineup.

One of the most important jobs a GM has is saving coaches from themselves and not acquiring bad players the coaching staff will develop an affinity for. Fill the roster out with good players, and even if the coaching staff isn’t optimizing the nightly line up, the guy who’s undeservingly getting a sweater over a better player is still pretty good. Give coaches a handful of bad players that can take jerseys from better guys and you’re playing with fire.

- Victoro311



🔥🔥🔥🥵
Tojo.
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Aliquippa, PA
Joined: 11.11.2014

Oct 18 @ 10:29 PM ET
If ceci and matheson are as bad as everyone here projects then rikki, Ruhw, Lee, or maniscalco shouldn’t have too much of a problem making them expendable.
- 10inchTerror

Those aren't exactly a bunch of blue chip names. 2 vets that they've never shown much confidence in and 2 rookies from college.

I think people are getting way ahead of themselves with Maniscalco just because GMJR said he might be ready. Turned out true with Marino, but he also once infamously called ZAR a future Hornqvist.

POJ you'd think would have that pedigree, but I agree with what Vic said about Matheson getting some rope due to his contract they just acquired.
Barnaby36
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Former Orpik44
Joined: 02.22.2013

Oct 18 @ 10:34 PM ET
How much will it take to sign Chara? The guy is a Fn pain in the ass to play against. At least he was. Crosby and Malkin could never go through him with ease.
10inchTerror
Joined: 10.13.2019

Oct 18 @ 11:47 PM ET
Those aren't exactly a bunch of blue chip names. 2 vets that they've never shown much confidence in and 2 rookies from college.

I think people are getting way ahead of themselves with Maniscalco just because GMJR said he might be ready. Turned out true with Marino, but he also once infamously called ZAR a future Hornqvist.

POJ you'd think would have that pedigree, but I agree with what Vic said about Matheson getting some rope due to his contract they just acquired.

- Tojo.


They could all be total busts including CC and MM or all the opposite. I’m sure whoever is ready for that spot will earn it and keep it when they get their chance. MM will def get a much longer leash though cause of his massive contract.
Tojo.
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Aliquippa, PA
Joined: 11.11.2014

Oct 19 @ 12:20 AM ET
They could all be total busts including CC and MM or all the opposite. I’m sure whoever is ready for that spot will earn it and keep it when they get their chance. MM will def get a much longer leash though cause of his massive contract.
- 10inchTerror

I'm not trying to imply they're busts, just that they'll likely need some AHL time.
Grinder47
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somerset, PA
Joined: 10.20.2013

Oct 19 @ 5:20 AM ET
I was banging the Martin is a huge issue drum since last season, and I do think he was a significant factor in Johnson’s preferred status on the team. But I think it’s naive to say Martin was the only reason JJ was held in such high esteem here given how much Rutherford gushed over him. It’s also important to keep in mind that Todd Rierden dragged the corpse of Brooks Orpik with him to Washington too, and that Orpik and Alzner’s roles on the Caps’ blue line was an issue there during his tenure. Rierden isn’t some bastion of sound decision making when it comes to picking the blue line lineup.

One of the most important jobs a GM has is saving coaches from themselves and not acquiring bad players the coaching staff will develop an affinity for. Fill the roster out with good players, and even if the coaching staff isn’t optimizing the nightly line up, the guy who’s undeservingly getting a sweater over a better player is still pretty good. Give coaches a handful of bad players that can take jerseys from better guys and you’re playing with fire.

- Victoro311

Dude the problem is Sullivan. He’s garbage and I said it while he was winning cups. “Just play”.
668710
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: 06.25.2011

Oct 19 @ 6:37 AM ET
You mean the 2 forwards that can be waived if they aren't working out and not count a dollar against our cap? Those guys?

I mean they aren't godlike like Tyler Ennis, but really, who is?

- TheGame316

Apparently you don't remember the Greg Mckegg/whatever the other guys name is year. It became the Sheahan/Brassard issue and hopefully that doesn't happen again.
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 7:43 AM ET
Apparently you don't remember the Greg Mckegg/whatever the other guys name is year. It became the Sheahan/Brassard issue and hopefully that doesn't happen again.
- 668710


It's exactly the same situation. The storyline after month one will be the Pens need either a 3C or upgrade on both wings. I'm not going to even pencil in Poulin in my mind, because you just can't bank on that.

I don't know why he's not signed yet, if it has anything to do with his asking price is too much compared to the market, but I think Soderberg would have been a wise signing on a one year or even two year deal.
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 7:45 AM ET
Because if you want a line to have a certain identity, you can't just stick any guy there and get the results you want

Is Joe Thornton still an NHLer? Yes

Who's better for OUR 4th line given the type of hockey we want them to play? Teddy Blueger or Joe Thornton

Blueger is. Because the identity of that line is based on speed, checking and defensive awareness.

If Malkin got hurt and our 2nd line needed a center to play with Rust and Zucker, Thornton would be a better fit than Blueger because of the type of player he is

Horn is a plugger who relies on OTHER elite players to get him the puck in the dirty areas to be effective. McCann (and whoever the other winger would be) is not Elite enough to make Hornqvist effective. Hornqvist is top 6 or bust and the 2 guys who center the top 6 aren't interested. Hockey isn't come kind of universal depth chart where you just move up and down the lineup according to some ambiguous "skill rank"

The 3rd line is being moulded with a speed and hustle identity, perhaps Poulin gets his start there, maybe Poulin plays with Sid or Malkin and Zucker, Rust or Kapanen drop to the 3rd line and it will still maintain it's identity. Hornqvist doesn't check that box

It's like no one has ever seen a zone cycle just die on the tape of Hornqvist

- TheGame316


I feel like you don't really read people's posts. You just want to spew your thoughts because you're arguing something I'm not arguing.

You seem to think I want Hornqvist here, love his game and don't think they could have done better. I like certain aspects of his game and think he does useful things, but I've been calling for the Pens to move on from him for the last couple of seasons because I no longer believe he fits the system.

I'm saying the third line with McCann and Hornqvist is far better than what they have now. Jankowski and Erod are players who could barely crack lineups and now they're the de facto third line for the Pens.
Barnaby36
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Former Orpik44
Joined: 02.22.2013

Oct 19 @ 7:46 AM ET
Because if you want a line to have a certain identity, you can't just stick any guy there and get the results you want

Is Joe Thornton still an NHLer? Yes

Who's better for OUR 4th line given the type of hockey we want them to play? Teddy Blueger or Joe Thornton

Blueger is. Because the identity of that line is based on speed, checking and defensive awareness.

If Malkin got hurt and our 2nd line needed a center to play with Rust and Zucker, Thornton would be a better fit than Blueger because of the type of player he is

Horn is a plugger who relies on OTHER elite players to get him the puck in the dirty areas to be effective. McCann (and whoever the other winger would be) is not Elite enough to make Hornqvist effective. Hornqvist is top 6 or bust and the 2 guys who center the top 6 aren't interested. Hockey isn't come kind of universal depth chart where you just move up and down the lineup according to some ambiguous "skill rank"

The 3rd line is being moulded with a speed and hustle identity, perhaps Poulin gets his start there, maybe Poulin plays with Sid or Malkin and Zucker, Rust or Kapanen drop to the 3rd line and it will still maintain it's identity. Hornqvist doesn't check that box

It's like no one has ever seen a zone cycle just die on the tape of Hornqvist

- TheGame316

Hörnqvist is a 4th line type of player tbh. He relies on hustle alone and deflections. He can't skate fast, handle the puck or create to others. At 34 his body could break down very soon. Good guy to have but not @ $5.3M and playing on the 3rd line. I'm more than fine with his departure.

Welcome to the Matheson/Ceci/Jankowski/Rodrigues ERA lol
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 8:02 AM ET
Hörnqvist is a 4th line type of player tbh.l
- Barnaby36


How many fourth line players consistently produce at 40 to 50 point pace?
MattStrat
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: St. John's, NF
Joined: 12.12.2014

Oct 19 @ 8:23 AM ET
Because if you want a line to have a certain identity, you can't just stick any guy there and get the results you want

Is Joe Thornton still an NHLer? Yes

Who's better for OUR 4th line given the type of hockey we want them to play? Teddy Blueger or Joe Thornton

Blueger is. Because the identity of that line is based on speed, checking and defensive awareness.

If Malkin got hurt and our 2nd line needed a center to play with Rust and Zucker, Thornton would be a better fit than Blueger because of the type of player he is

Horn is a plugger who relies on OTHER elite players to get him the puck in the dirty areas to be effective. McCann (and whoever the other winger would be) is not Elite enough to make Hornqvist effective. Hornqvist is top 6 or bust and the 2 guys who center the top 6 aren't interested. Hockey isn't come kind of universal depth chart where you just move up and down the lineup according to some ambiguous "skill rank"

The 3rd line is being moulded with a speed and hustle identity, perhaps Poulin gets his start there, maybe Poulin plays with Sid or Malkin and Zucker, Rust or Kapanen drop to the 3rd line and it will still maintain it's identity. Hornqvist doesn't check that box

It's like no one has ever seen a zone cycle just die on the tape of Hornqvist

- TheGame316


I remember a 3rd line with Bjugs and Horny cycling for days.
Barnaby36
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Former Orpik44
Joined: 02.22.2013

Oct 19 @ 8:23 AM ET
How many fourth line players consistently produce at 40 to 50 point pace?
- Rinosaur

The ones who get 1st PP time and play with two generational talents. A 4th liner can get points with ease this way. Hörny is a 4th liner playing for Team Sweden. I know you're just finding something to discuss about lol
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 8:51 AM ET
The ones who get 1st PP time and play with two generational talents. A 4th liner can get points with ease this way. Hörny is a 4th liner playing for Team Sweden. I know you're just finding something to discuss about lol
- Barnaby36


You're talking to someone who's not the biggest fan of Hornqvist, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand about the kind of player he is. He's an overpaid 3rd line player. He's not a 4th liner.

Seven of his 32 points last year were from the PP. 14 ES Goals in 52 games.
668710
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: 06.25.2011

Oct 19 @ 9:07 AM ET
You're talking to someone who's not the biggest fan of Hornqvist, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand about the kind of player he is. He's an overpaid 3rd line player. He's not a 4th liner.

Seven of his 32 points last year were from the PP. 14 ES Goals in 52 games.

- Rinosaur

When they resigned him it should have been for 4mil per max
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 9:18 AM ET
When they resigned him it should have been for 4mil per max
- 668710


Yeah, less salary for sure and I would have been fine if it was somewhere around $4.5M, but the term and clauses were terrible.
Thunderbolt
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Wampum, PA
Joined: 01.20.2014

Oct 19 @ 9:54 AM ET
The ones who get 1st PP time and play with two generational talents. A 4th liner can get points with ease this way. Hörny is a 4th liner playing for Team Sweden. I know you're just finding something to discuss about lol
- Barnaby36


Please explain Dominic Simon and his 22 points.
Thunderbolt
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Wampum, PA
Joined: 01.20.2014

Oct 19 @ 10:00 AM ET
Because if you want a line to have a certain identity, you can't just stick any guy there and get the results you want

Is Joe Thornton still an NHLer? Yes

Who's better for OUR 4th line given the type of hockey we want them to play? Teddy Blueger or Joe Thornton

Blueger is. Because the identity of that line is based on speed, checking and defensive awareness.

If Malkin got hurt and our 2nd line needed a center to play with Rust and Zucker, Thornton would be a better fit than Blueger because of the type of player he is

Horn is a plugger who relies on OTHER elite players to get him the puck in the dirty areas to be effective. McCann (and whoever the other winger would be) is not Elite enough to make Hornqvist effective. Hornqvist is top 6 or bust and the 2 guys who center the top 6 aren't interested. Hockey isn't come kind of universal depth chart where you just move up and down the lineup according to some ambiguous "skill rank"

The 3rd line is being moulded with a speed and hustle identity, perhaps Poulin gets his start there, maybe Poulin plays with Sid or Malkin and Zucker, Rust or Kapanen drop to the 3rd line and it will still maintain it's identity. Hornqvist doesn't check that box

It's like no one has ever seen a zone cycle just die on the tape of Hornqvist

- TheGame316


Okay, you win. With both Hornqvist and Johnson gone, I expect us to improve upon our last two seasons of 100 pts. (We were on pace for 102 pts.) Shouldn't be hard at all. After all they are the main reason we lost any games.
Barnaby36
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Former Orpik44
Joined: 02.22.2013

Oct 19 @ 10:04 AM ET
Please explain Dominic Simon and his 22 points.
- Thunderbolt

You tell me lol I can tell you that: good hockey IQ but can't shoot the puck to save his life. Can play with skilled guys and won't be a liability as long as he's not the guy to finish the play lol I was hoping we could find a way to re-sign him to a cheap deal.

Simon > Aston-Reese, Rodrigues, Jankowski
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 10:29 AM ET
Okay, you win. With both Hornqvist and Johnson gone, I expect us to improve upon our last two seasons of 100 pts. (We were on pace for 102 pts.) Shouldn't be hard at all. After all they are the main reason we lost any games.
- Thunderbolt


LOL
Tojo.
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Aliquippa, PA
Joined: 11.11.2014

Oct 19 @ 10:46 AM ET
When they resigned him it should have been for 4mil per max
- 668710

Which he'd have never signed. Even then, it waa expected Hornqvist could get 6M on the open market so he sort of gave them a discount. It's just generally a bad idea to sign non-star players to long-term deals that go deep into their 30s, but a team in win now mode didn't want to lose him.

Maybe the market corrects itself now with this flat cap. I know it's probably better to be Colorado still plotting out how to pay your young core than Toronto who already locked all their guys up to expensive deals.
Rinosaur
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somewhere, NJ
Joined: 01.21.2016

Oct 19 @ 11:05 AM ET
Which he'd have never signed. Even then, it waa expected Hornqvist could get 6M on the open market so he sort of gave them a discount. It's just generally a bad idea to sign non-star players to long-term deals that go deep into their 30s, but a team in win now mode didn't want to lose him.

Maybe the market corrects itself now with this flat cap. I know it's probably better to be Colorado still plotting out how to pay your young core than Toronto who already locked all their guys up to expensive deals.

- Tojo.


It's all about decisions and whether or not signing Hornqvist or letting him walk was the right decision, some of the decisions he's made this off-season were unnecessary and the Pens will be icing a team that's not as a good as last year's team.

Obviously there's a little wait-and-see with the defense, but the hit the bottom six has taken IMO outweighs any possible improvements to the defense.
Victoro311
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Washington, DC
Joined: 06.17.2014

Oct 19 @ 11:15 AM ET
Dude the problem is Sullivan. He’s garbage and I said it while he was winning cups. “Just play”.
- Grinder47

I think everyone’s a problem. I would have fired both JR and Sullivan this past offseason and brought in fresh minds.

Coaching and roster construction have been equal parts poor these past few seasons and while Martin was a problem, like I said in that post, it’s silly to think a different assistant will be the magic bullet that fixes our personnel issues.
Grinder47
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Somerset, PA
Joined: 10.20.2013

Oct 19 @ 4:59 PM ET
I think everyone’s a problem. I would have fired both JR and Sullivan this past offseason and brought in fresh minds.

Coaching and roster construction have been equal parts poor these past few seasons and while Martin was a problem, like I said in that post, it’s silly to think a different assistant will be the magic bullet that fixes our personnel issues.

- Victoro311

Sullivan has last call. Any lineup discrepancies come back on him.
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