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Forums :: Blog World :: Jeremy Laura: How low can you go? Bertuzzi submits arbitration $
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Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 1:40 PM ET
Jeremy Laura: How low can you go? Bertuzzi submits arbitration $
Feds91Stammer
Detroit Red Wings
Location: "China was as proactive as possible" - Rinosaur, SC
Joined: 02.01.2012

Oct 23 @ 1:43 PM ET
Give him 4 x 4m and move on to Mantha.
HenryHockey
Season Ticket Holder
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Gwinn, MI
Joined: 01.26.2020

Oct 23 @ 1:48 PM ET
4 X $4M....agreed!

At some point NYR will come calling for Zetterberg's contract and Stevie will get their 2022 2nd as well.
Udogs
Joined: 09.19.2019

Oct 23 @ 2:00 PM ET
4 X $4M....agreed!

At some point NYR will come calling for Zetterberg's contract and Stevie will get their 2022 2nd as well.

- HenryHockey


wut?
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 2:05 PM ET
Love Bertuzzi but he is not at the Larkin / Mantha level and anything north of $5 million would have been an extreme reach IMO. I would say $4 million is very fair for both sides.

He has looked good playing with Larkin and Mantha, especially considering the Red Wings had literally no other viable offensive threats this season with the arguable exceptions of Fabbri and Zadina. But long term I see Bertuzzi as a good second line winger, nothing more -- easily behind Mantha and eventually probably behind Zadina and Raymond as well, and perhaps others (Berggren, etc.)

I agree with Feds, 4 x $4m would be very satisfactory to me.
HenryHockey
Season Ticket Holder
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Gwinn, MI
Joined: 01.26.2020

Oct 23 @ 2:06 PM ET
wut?
- Udogs


NYR needs cap space, with all their buyouts and bonuses they can only have salary at about $68M (probably a bit less if players on bonuses do well).
Zetterbergs contract would give them another $6M in cap space.
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 2:11 PM ET
Give him 4 x 4m and move on to Mantha.
- Feds91Stammer


Nice prop Feds. I’m not sure how many UFA years are on the table at this point. I’m impressed by Bertuzzi ask. Very self aware and team oriented kid.
Feds91Stammer
Detroit Red Wings
Location: "China was as proactive as possible" - Rinosaur, SC
Joined: 02.01.2012

Oct 23 @ 2:33 PM ET
Nice prop Feds. I’m not sure how many UFA years are on the table at this point. I’m impressed by Bertuzzi ask. Very self aware and team oriented kid.
- Jeremy Laura

4 years locks him up through age 30. He’s not a top tier player so any longer would be a mistake.
mcmastermike1968
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Columbia, SC
Joined: 07.01.2020

Oct 23 @ 2:42 PM ET
Sparkling answer. Was thinking that was about right for $ & term, for both Mantha (getting close to being a true break-out player he's capable of, if he can stay healthy).

I say 4x$4 for both....
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 2:53 PM ET
Sparkling answer. Was thinking that was about right for $ & term, for both Mantha (getting close to being a true break-out player he's capable of, if he can stay healthy).

I say 4x$4 for both....

- mcmastermike1968


I’d be shocked if Mantha goes that low. I’m sure he could get more on market, and he’s not qualified. Can do offer sheet
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 2:54 PM ET
Sparkling answer. Was thinking that was about right for $ & term, for both Mantha (getting close to being a true break-out player he's capable of, if he can stay healthy).

I say 4x$4 for both....

- mcmastermike1968


Mantha is much better than Bertuzzi.
Feds91Stammer
Detroit Red Wings
Location: "China was as proactive as possible" - Rinosaur, SC
Joined: 02.01.2012

Oct 23 @ 2:57 PM ET
Mantha is much better than Bertuzzi.
- Sven22

5 x 5.5m for Mantha would be ideal imo
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 3:26 PM ET
NYR needs cap space, with all their buyouts and bonuses they can only have salary at about $68M (probably a bit less if players on bonuses do well).
Zetterbergs contract would give them another $6M in cap space.

- HenryHockey


That's not really how LTIR works. Simply adding a $6 million injured player doesn't automatically allow you to then go out and buy $6 million worth of healthy players. Thre are really only a small number of circumstances where acquiring an LTIR player will actually help you circumvent the ceiling, and I'm not sure any of them apply to the Rangers right now.
HenryHockey
Season Ticket Holder
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Gwinn, MI
Joined: 01.26.2020

Oct 23 @ 3:28 PM ET
That's not really how LTIR works. Simply adding a $6 million injured player doesn't automatically allow you to then go out and buy $6 million worth of healthy players. Thre are really only a small number of circumstances where acquiring an LTIR player will actually help you circumvent the ceiling, and I'm not sure any of them apply to the Rangers right now.
- Sven22


Did they recently change it???? Leafs did this just last year.


Feds91Stammer
Detroit Red Wings
Location: "China was as proactive as possible" - Rinosaur, SC
Joined: 02.01.2012

Oct 23 @ 3:33 PM ET
Did they recently change it???? Leafs did this just last year.
- HenryHockey

No it’s been like that forever. LTIR just changes your upper limit. It does not give you more cap space.
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 3:34 PM ET
That's not really how LTIR works. Simply adding a $6 million injured player doesn't automatically allow you to then go out and buy $6 million worth of healthy players. Thre are really only a small number of circumstances where acquiring an LTIR player will actually help you circumvent the ceiling, and I'm not sure any of them apply to the Rangers right now.
- Sven22


Yeah, it’s a tiered rate. The team has to prove that they’re spending at the cap to get the LTIR to kick in, but there are even more subtle issues. TSN reported earlier this year that Leafs wouldn’t get relief adding more LTIR contracts for some reason. Honestly, they need to get rid of the loophole altogether. It’s become a bit of a joke. If a player can’t play, let there be a two party (plus physician) buyout with no cap hit. The requirement, of course, is that the player can’t play anymore or the penalty is enacted
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 3:34 PM ET
5 x 5.5m for Mantha would be ideal imo
- Feds91Stammer


I’d be happy, more than happy, at that number.
DRW1991
Detroit Red Wings
Joined: 07.05.2016

Oct 23 @ 3:39 PM ET
Here is a tweet from CapFriendly that helps sum up what the Leafs did.

https://twitter.com/CapFr...tatus/1153796541414379521
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 3:41 PM ET
Did they recently change it???? Leafs did this just last year.
- HenryHockey


Assuming you aren't already over the cap, LTIR allows you to increase your current payroll by up to the amount of that player’s salary, as of the day the player is placed on LTIR, even if doing so would cause you to go over the cap.

Basic example:

Cap: $80 million
Current payroll including injured player: $76 million
Cap hit of injured player: $6 million

Putting the injured player on LTIR now allows you to spend up to $82 million ($76m + $6m), including your LTIR player. Note that this means that you now only have $76 million to spend on healthy players, because that’s what your team's total AAV was the day you starting using LTIR.

If you're already over the cap by the first day of the season, then LTIR essentially offers no relief. It just allows you to maintain your current payroll (and go no higher) without penalty.

In order to fully exploit LTIR, you need to be able to get your current payroll as close as possible to the cap before using LTIR, in order to get the maximum possible relief.

The reason that Toronto reacquiring Clarkson to make room for Marner worked is because, without Clarkson's contract, they wouldn't have been able to get their payroll any closer than about $3.5m from the cap ceiling by the start of the season if they weren't able to sign Marner.

That would mean they would only effectively be able to utilize ~$2 million of relief from placing Horton on LTIR, which would significantly reduce the amount of money they could offer Marner if he chose to hold out until after the season started, making them more vulnerable to getting offer-sheeted and reducing their leverage.

Clarkson's contract was just the right size to allow them to shimmy up to the cap ceiling by opening day and get maximum LTIR value.
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 3:43 PM ET
Assuming you aren't already over the cap, LTIR allows you to increase your current payroll by up to the amount of that player’s salary, as of the day the player is placed on LTIR, even if doing so would cause you to go over the cap.

Basic example:

Cap: $80 million
Current payroll including injured player: $76 million
Cap hit of injured player: $6 million

Putting the injured player on LTIR now allows you to spend up to $82 million ($76m + $6m), including your LTIR player. Note that this means that you now only have $76 million to spend on healthy players, because that’s what you had the day you starting using LTIR.

If you're already over the cap by the first day of the season, then LTIR essentially offers no relief. It just allows you to maintain your current payroll (and go no higher) without penalty.

In order to fully exploit LTIR, you need to be able to get your current payroll as close as possible to the cap before using LTIR, in order to get the maximum possible relief.

The reason that Toronto reacquiring Clarkson to make room for Marner worked is because, without Clarkson's contract, they wouldn't have been able to get their payroll any closer than about $3.5m from the cap ceiling by the start of the season if they weren't able to sign Marner.

That would mean they would only effectively be able to utilize ~$2 million of relief from placing Horton on LTIR, which would significantly reduce the amount of money they could offer Marner if he chose to hold out until after the season started, making them more vulnerable to getting offer-sheeted and reducing their leverage.

- Sven22


Glad bless you Sven. Everyone, take notes here. This is important to keep track of
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 3:45 PM ET
Glad bless you Sven. Everyone, take notes here. This is important to keep track of
- Jeremy Laura


The actual calculations are even more arcane and complex but this is basically the gist of it.
Feds91Stammer
Detroit Red Wings
Location: "China was as proactive as possible" - Rinosaur, SC
Joined: 02.01.2012

Oct 23 @ 3:52 PM ET
The actual calculations are even more arcane and complex but this is basically the gist of it.
- Sven22

Yeah the Franzen LTIR and Holland’s poor cap management made me all too familiar with how it works.
Jeremy Laura
Detroit Red Wings
Location: MI
Joined: 01.26.2016

Oct 23 @ 4:21 PM ET
The actual calculations are even more arcane and complex but this is basically the gist of it.
- Sven22


You’re an invaluable dude to know brother. I know you’ve helped me through some of the numbers that just don’t make sense. Thanks for being here!
HenryHockey
Season Ticket Holder
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Gwinn, MI
Joined: 01.26.2020

Oct 23 @ 4:35 PM ET
Assuming you aren't already over the cap, LTIR allows you to increase your current payroll by up to the amount of that player’s salary, as of the day the player is placed on LTIR, even if doing so would cause you to go over the cap.

Basic example:

Cap: $80 million
Current payroll including injured player: $76 million
Cap hit of injured player: $6 million

Putting the injured player on LTIR now allows you to spend up to $82 million ($76m + $6m), including your LTIR player. Note that this means that you now only have $76 million to spend on healthy players, because that’s what your team's total AAV was the day you starting using LTIR.

If you're already over the cap by the first day of the season, then LTIR essentially offers no relief. It just allows you to maintain your current payroll (and go no higher) without penalty.

In order to fully exploit LTIR, you need to be able to get your current payroll as close as possible to the cap before using LTIR, in order to get the maximum possible relief.

The reason that Toronto reacquiring Clarkson to make room for Marner worked is because, without Clarkson's contract, they wouldn't have been able to get their payroll any closer than about $3.5m from the cap ceiling by the start of the season if they weren't able to sign Marner.

That would mean they would only effectively be able to utilize ~$2 million of relief from placing Horton on LTIR, which would significantly reduce the amount of money they could offer Marner if he chose to hold out until after the season started, making them more vulnerable to getting offer-sheeted and reducing their leverage.

Clarkson's contract was just the right size to allow them to shimmy up to the cap ceiling by opening day and get maximum LTIR value.

- Sven22


It seems there are teams that still could make use of Z's contract......NYR are under cap, untill you factor in bonuses and buyouts.......would they qualify if they got down to the $68M to be cap complient, then add Z's or Dubinski's contract and sign a player of like worth near the 1st of the season ....seems like what the Leafs did. But I am just saying that there is a procedure to be able to utilize Z's contract to expand your spending.
Sven22
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 12.24.2007

Oct 23 @ 5:21 PM ET
It seems there are teams that still could make use of Z's contract......NYR are under cap, untill you factor in bonuses and buyouts.......would they qualify if they got down to the $68M to be cap complient, then add Z's or Dubinski's contract and sign a player of like worth near the 1st of the season ....seems like what the Leafs did. But I am just saying that there is a procedure to be able to utilize Z's contract to expand your spending.
- HenryHockey


If I understand the numbers correctly, I think the Rangers are actually at ~$7 million under even with all that extra crap.

Active roster (21 players): ~$57.5m
Buyouts: ~$13 m
Bonus cushion penalty: ~$4m

TOTAL: ~$74.5 million

For whatever reason CapFriendly does not seem to be accounting for $4 million bonus cushion penalty in their projected cap hit calculations for the Rangers, but the buyouts are already factored in.
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