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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Another Devastating Stretch-Drive Defeat
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PLindbergh31
Location: NJ
Joined: 02.01.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:35 AM ET
I agree. He's also a player that coaches have to stay on constantly to stay focused. Sometimes, he's great on the forecheck. Other times, he takes pretty curious routes (did that last night in a NZ situation). In that role in the lineup, you really need someone lower maintenance.

Also, the hints of offensive upside he showed last year have been nowhere to be seen this season.

- bmeltzer


I like the energy he brings, he has enough skill to be a 4th line player. But as bad as the Flyers PK is, he can't continue to take offensive zone, and neutral zone penalties. He's got to take a seat and be held accountable.
cdearth23
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Joined: 08.06.2015

Apr 7 @ 10:36 AM ET
The only silver lining is we may get to see some of the young prospects get a shot. I'm very interested in seeing York and Allison.

Sad state of affairs. We need to sell what we can at deadline. Make a bigger deal over the summer for d help. Hart will bounce back. He's looked good in his last few starts.

Sad to see Raffl, maybe Laughton and some others depart but it is what it is.

Scotty Laughts will be the next ex-Flyer to lift the Cup.
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Apr 7 @ 10:37 AM ET
But he can be very good and yet others can be better, surely. No contradiction there.

Like I said before, it is fine to have your own assessment when external sources diverge.

But if expert opinion pols show him outside the top 15 AND comprehensive statistics show him outside the top 15 AND a poll of GM's and personnel show him outside the top 15, and you persist undeterred with your assessment, then it is not really an assessment.

It is faith.

- PT21


I said I agree that we know how good he is. I didn't say he should be in that opinion-based, meaningless top-10 list. I don't even care that there is an opinion-based top-10 list lol
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Apr 7 @ 10:38 AM ET
But he can be very good and yet others can be better, surely. No contradiction there.

Like I said before, it is fine to have your own assessment when external sources diverge.

But if expert opinion pols show him outside the top 15 AND comprehensive statistics show him outside the top 15 AND a poll of GM's and personnel show him outside the top 15, and you persist undeterred with your assessment, then it is not really an assessment.

It is faith.

- PT21


You dismissed the poll of GM's and personnel that showed that Provorov was a top 10 NHL defenseman. A poll that had him ranked in the top 10 on 7 ballots.
You've yet to support the claim that comprehensive statistics show him outside the top 10
It is faith on your part labeling the one opinion poll that you've based your premise on as an expert opinion poll.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:39 AM ET
ESPN+ Top 10 Centers By Greg Wyshynski
we canvassed 10 active NHL players -- seven skaters, three goaltenders -- and 10 individuals in team hockey operations, from coaches to general managers to player personnel executives. The surveys were conducted over the past two months. Respondents were asked to rank their top 10 players at center, winger, defenseman and goaltender, based on a predetermined list of the top 20-30 players at each position. Players who were ranked in the top 10 on each ballot were given a numerical score -- No. 1 earned 10 points, No. 2 earned 9 points and so on.
1. McDavid
2. MacKinnon
3. Auston Matthews
4. Crosby
5. Draisaitl
6. Eichel
7. Bergeron
8. Aleksander Barkov
9. Brayden Point
10. Barzal

Honorable Mention: Ryan O'Reilly, Elias Petterson, Mark Scheifele, Anze Kopitar, Malkin.

Couts is not mentioned in the article at all. They don't provide the complete list of the 20-30 pre-determined players that the respondents got to rank from. It would be nice if they did.

- Big_E_88


Its nuts that Aho is not in this list. Did you noice that Dougie Hamilton did not make it to the top 10 or mentions list among the Dmen? I suspect there were no Carolina personnel among those polled.
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Apr 7 @ 10:39 AM ET
Bill, I respectfully disagree. While I did mention Ghost should have taken away the pass and let Hart focus on the shooter, if Marchand does that to a lot of goalies, (considering you know and I know it) then Hart should be expecting it. They do study film right? Goalies should know the tendencies of the other teams top players. For example, we know Ovie is going to rip that one timer coming across his body on the PP, so preparation would dictate being ready for it/anticipating it. While on the whole Hart's play may have been fine, sometimes you need more than that, especially when the playoffs are essentially on the line.
- aantny88


Teams and goalies know exactly what AO and Marchand (and many others) are going to do yet those players still manage to score.

PLindbergh31
Location: NJ
Joined: 02.01.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:39 AM ET
The only silver lining is we may get to see some of the young prospects get a shot. I'm very interested in seeing York and Allison.

Sad state of affairs. We need to sell what we can at deadline. Make a bigger deal over the summer for d help. Hart will bounce back. He's looked good in his last few starts.

Sad to see Raffl, maybe Laughton and some others depart but it is what it is.

Scotty Laughts will be the next ex-Flyer to lift the Cup.

- cdearth23


Laughton had a very frustrating night, he was all over the ice, just couldn't finish.
I'd like the Flyers to sign him.
aantny88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Suck it Phaneuf, PA
Joined: 03.14.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:42 AM ET
Teams and goalies know exactly what AO and Marchand (and many others) are going to do yet those players still manage to score.
- Scoob


Well sure, they're going to score because they get a high volume of shots and sometimes the shots are simply unstoppable. The move by Marchand last night was not one of those unstoppable shots. Neither was Bergeron's on the PP.
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Apr 7 @ 10:43 AM ET
I am on record posting in February that if the Flyers keep playing like this they will not make the playoffs, and now that has come true. I am also on record posting at the start of the season that the Flyers younger players (Hextall's pride and joy) are not that good, and alas so far that has shown to be true. So, unless Fletcher has learned from his mistakes in Minnesota, No, I don't think the future is all that bright, but I am willing to give Fletcher the off season to fix this and judge him then.
- jd250


I am not ready to write off all of our young players. Last year, most of them took great strides and looked like world beaters. This year has seen some bad regression, but that's how it goes with most young players. There are bumps in the road unfortunately. Look at Hart. His idol experienced the same thing before becoming a HOF tender, so we can't forget how young he is. I have faith that the young core will rebound. Fletch did not properly supplement the core with vet talent before this year, and I believe that's on him. The loss of Nisky haunted us IMO.
jd250
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.12.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:44 AM ET
No, you posted that the Flyers should've played not to win and not used their normal PP lineup due to who the Bruins have out there. That is not the correct approach to use.
- MJL

I did NOT post that, instead that is what you interpreted my post to say, which is incorrect! There is a difference between playing "not to lose" and fielding an appropriate line to match what your opponents are doing. That is what a coach is for in the end, otherwise what good are they?
aantny88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Suck it Phaneuf, PA
Joined: 03.14.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:47 AM ET
I am not ready to write off all of our young players. Last year, most of them took great strides and looked like world beaters. This year has seen some bad regression, but that's how it goes with most young players. There are bumps in the road unfortunately. Look at Hart. His idol experienced the same thing before becoming a HOF tender, so we can't forget how young he is. I have faith that the young core will rebound. Fletch did not properly supplement the core with vet talent before this year, and I believe that's on him. The loss of Nisky haunted us IMO.
- Hextall271


Do you think Carey Price makes the HOF, even without a Cup? I sure hope you're right about the young guys rebounding from this year! If not, it's going to be a long few years until the Flyers are top contenders again. Totally agree with Fletcher dropping the ball in the offseason. I was hoping Pitlick would stay, as I liked what he brought to the team and they'd find a more adequate replacement for Niskanen, but that didn't materialize.
jd250
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.12.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:49 AM ET
I am not ready to write off all of our young players. Last year, most of them took great strides and looked like world beaters. This year has seen some bad regression, but that's how it goes with most young players. There are bumps in the road unfortunately. Look at Hart. His idol experienced the same thing before becoming a HOF tender, so we can't forget how young he is. I have faith that the young core will rebound. Fletch did not properly supplement the core with vet talent before this year, and I believe that's on him. The loss of Nisky haunted us IMO.
- Hextall271

I think the loss of Niskanen is being entirely overblow IMO. Let's say for the sake of argument that Nisky did not retire and played this year, what would the defense look like? Well, Provorov would play with Niskanen, and I have to think he would seem to play better because he has a solid and steady partner who would cover the myriad of mistakes we now see that Provorov makes. Myers and Sanheim most likely would be your second pair, and they would still suck. Braun would slot down with Ghost on your 3rd pair, and they would be what they are. So would the Flyers really be all that much better with Niskanen in the lineup? A little bit for sure, but I don't think they would magically be a playoff team this year.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:50 AM ET
I said I agree that we know how good he is. I didn't say he should be in that opinion-based, meaningless top-10 list. I don't even care that there is an opinion-based top-10 list lol
- Scoob


Sure. He can be very good but not among the top half.

Its a competitive, zero-sum game though. Non-relative comparisons are meaningless, are they not.

Btw, I posted a stat 2 days ago, which I am not sure you saw. I cut and paste the relevant parts:

1. Look at the years 2017/18 through now, which is the peak of Couturier's career, with a minimum of 1800 mins played over this span (I chose that window to include some of the younger players). This period is tilted in favor of Couts because it includes his peak years but other players, in particular Point, Aho, and Petersson are very young at this stage and Toews is getting old.

2. Look at 5 on 5 stats normalized over 60 mins, which is far more revealing than ES stats (the latter includes OT, 4 on 4, PK with the goalie pulled and so on), as 5 on 5 is really what we mean when we think of ES.

3. Look only at active centers. Exclude players who have played on wing and center (like Panarin, Marchand, Giroux). I keep Aho and Stamkos, because they are mostly centers and would be called as such today.

Couturier then ranks 18th on that list.

Note, this is right around where he ranks in the nhl.com survey of analysts (he was 17th last year and 18th this year).
jd250
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.12.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:52 AM ET
Do you think Carey Price makes the HOF, even without a Cup? I sure hope you're right about the young guys rebounding from this year! If not, it's going to be a long few years until the Flyers are top contenders again. Totally agree with Fletcher dropping the ball in the offseason. I was hoping Pitlick would stay, as I liked what he brought to the team and they'd find a more adequate replacement for Niskanen, but that didn't materialize.
- aantny88

I believe the reasoning for letting Pitlick go was to open a roster spot for one of the younger players to seize, yet so far none of them have been able to do it. Again what does this say that we can't find 1 younger player to take a 4th line role consistently on this team?
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Apr 7 @ 10:55 AM ET
Do you think Carey Price makes the HOF, even without a Cup? I sure hope you're right about the young guys rebounding from this year! If not, it's going to be a long few years until the Flyers are top contenders again. Totally agree with Fletcher dropping the ball in the offseason. I was hoping Pitlick would stay, as I liked what he brought to the team and they'd find a more adequate replacement for Niskanen, but that didn't materialize.
- aantny88


I think he does. Remember, He's got two Olympic gold medals, a world cup, a hart and a vezina. He was considered the best for I'd say a 5 year span although he hasn't won a cup.

We forget, we lost a lot of veterans from the squad last year. Nisky, pitlick, Grant and Thompson.. Doesn't seem like a big loss, but these were reliable vets that could eat minutes, PK and play reliable d. We gambled that the kids were all ready..they weren't. It's snowballed into Hart losing confidence after those epic beat downs in March.
jd250
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.12.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:57 AM ET
The only silver lining is we may get to see some of the young prospects get a shot. I'm very interested in seeing York and Allison.

Sad state of affairs. We need to sell what we can at deadline. Make a bigger deal over the summer for d help. Hart will bounce back. He's looked good in his last few starts.

Sad to see Raffl, maybe Laughton and some others depart but it is what it is.

Scotty Laughts will be the next ex-Flyer to lift the Cup.

- cdearth23

The Flyers cannot go back to having a goalie crisis, Hart has got to work out for them. It should be Fletchers priority in the off season to surround Hart with the best defenseman and defensive system he can, to let this kid grow and gain confidence. This step back cannot be allowed to continue. I for one would rather York, Allison and Foerster to stay with the Phantoms. Why risk injury coming up to the NHL too soon? And the Phantoms are a good team this year, so I would rather those players get valuable experience playing meaningful games down there versus meaningless games up here.
PLindbergh31
Location: NJ
Joined: 02.01.2008

Apr 7 @ 10:57 AM ET
Sure. He can be very good but not among the top half.

Its a competitive, zero-sum game though. Non-relative comparisons are meaningless, are they not.

Btw, I posted a stat 2 days ago, which I am not sure you saw. I cut and paste the relevant parts:

1. Look at the years 2017/18 through now, which is the peak of Couturier's career, with a minimum of 1800 mins played over this span (I chose that window to include some of the younger players). This period is tilted in favor of Couts because it includes his peak years but other players, in particular Point, Aho, and Petersson are very young at this stage and Toews is getting old.

2. Look at 5 on 5 stats normalized over 60 mins, which is far more revealing than ES stats (the latter includes OT, 4 on 4, PK with the goalie pulled and so on), as 5 on 5 is really what we mean when we think of ES.

3. Look only at active centers. Exclude players who have played on wing and center (like Panarin, Marchand, Giroux). I keep Aho and Stamkos, because they are mostly centers and would be called as such today.

Couturier then ranks 18th on that list.

Note, this is right around where he ranks in the nhl.com survey of analysts (he was 17th last year and 18th this year).

- PT21


Couturier is clearly the Flyers best player. He's a very good two way Selke winning center. Why does it matter where others rank him?
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Apr 7 @ 10:58 AM ET
Sure. He can be very good but not among the top half.

Its a competitive, zero-sum game though. Non-relative comparisons are meaningless, are they not.

Btw, I posted a stat 2 days ago, which I am not sure you saw. I cut and paste the relevant parts:

1. Look at the years 2017/18 through now, which is the peak of Couturier's career, with a minimum of 1800 mins played over this span (I chose that window to include some of the younger players). This period is tilted in favor of Couts because it includes his peak years but other players, in particular Point, Aho, and Petersson are very young at this stage and Toews is getting old.

2. Look at 5 on 5 stats normalized over 60 mins, which is far more revealing than ES stats (the latter includes OT, 4 on 4, PK with the goalie pulled and so on), as 5 on 5 is really what we mean when we think of ES.

3. Look only at active centers. Exclude players who have played on wing and center (like Panarin, Marchand, Giroux). I keep Aho and Stamkos, because they are mostly centers and would be called as such today.

Couturier then ranks 18th on that list.

Note, this is right around where he ranks in the nhl.com survey of analysts (he was 17th last year and 18th this year).

- PT21


You're preaching to the choir on this one. He's good. No arguing that. I'm just not one of those fans who gets offended when a player gets "snubbed" by being excluded from a list. idgaf about lists
RajaAmpat
Joined: 12.16.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:58 AM ET
Above all the on ice changes my first move is to sack Therrien and Yeo.

I know it does have some to do with what you're working with on ice but how a team converts on literally half their PPs over 7 games is beyond me. Plus a shorty to boot.

If they had even the remotest of above average special teams they might be closer to a playoff birth despite poor defense and pedestrian goaltending.

- Pelle31Forever


Yes the assistants are the ones that need to be shown the door, along with a lot of guys coasting and playing like they are Atoms or Mites...or mentally making tee times or planning their summer cottage visits while the game is on. I honestly wish the Organization would suspend those players and I don't gave a poop about the NHLPA whining. There is a lot of rot in that locker room.
NC Flyers Fan
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 07.19.2018

Apr 7 @ 10:58 AM ET
I believe the reasoning for letting Pitlick go was to open a roster spot for one of the younger players to seize, yet so far none of them have been able to do it. Again what does this say that we can't find 1 younger player to take a 4th line role consistently on this team?
- jd250


Injuries along with the lack of AHL game time due to Covid cancellations and schedule changes has prevented us from even seeing Allison and they haven’t tried Sandin. Allison has lots of potential to be a good fit with his shot and style.

Remember there was no preseason either.
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Apr 7 @ 11:00 AM ET
I think the loss of Niskanen is being entirely overblow IMO. Let's say for the sake of argument that Nisky did not retire and played this year, what would the defense look like? Well, Provorov would play with Niskanen, and I have to think he would seem to play better because he has a solid and steady partner who would cover the myriad of mistakes we now see that Provorov makes. Myers and Sanheim most likely would be your second pair, and they would still suck. Braun would slot down with Ghost on your 3rd pair, and they would be what they are. So would the Flyers really be all that much better with Niskanen in the lineup? A little bit for sure, but I don't think they would magically be a playoff team this year.
- jd250


His loss was definitely felt on several levels not the least of which is that he allows the d to be properly slotted. As well, as I understand it, he brought a level of leadership and calmness to the overall group and especially the D corps. Experience is a big factor. Paired with Provy, he seemed to make it so Provy didn't have to do it all. Kept his game more simple. I don't think we're a contender with Nisky, but I believe we'd be looking at a playoff spot. Losing a top 2 dman who played all situations, and not replacing him at all is a huge loss.
Robert's Plant
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 03.23.2021

Apr 7 @ 11:02 AM ET
I think the loss of Niskanen is being entirely overblow IMO. Let's say for the sake of argument that Nisky did not retire and played this year, what would the defense look like? Well, Provorov would play with Niskanen, and I have to think he would seem to play better because he has a solid and steady partner who would cover the myriad of mistakes we now see that Provorov makes. Myers and Sanheim most likely would be your second pair, and they would still suck. Braun would slot down with Ghost on your 3rd pair, and they would be what they are. So would the Flyers really be all that much better with Niskanen in the lineup? A little bit for sure, but I don't think they would magically be a playoff team this year.
- jd250


Fully agreed. We all saw how Nisky contributed last year in the playoffs. It wouldn't be that far fetched to think it would be the same.


Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Apr 7 @ 11:02 AM ET
The Flyers cannot go back to having a goalie crisis, Hart has got to work out for them. It should be Fletchers priority in the off season to surround Hart with the best defenseman and defensive system he can, to let this kid grow and gain confidence. This step back cannot be allowed to continue. I for one would rather York, Allison and Foerster to stay with the Phantoms. Why risk injury coming up to the NHL too soon? And the Phantoms are a good team this year, so I would rather those players get valuable experience playing meaningful games down there versus meaningless games up here.
- jd250


If you look at Hart's track record, I think he works this out. All levels, he's been solid and this may even be his first bump in the road. It's all confidence I believe.
black_francis
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bumfuck, NJ
Joined: 01.10.2015

Apr 7 @ 11:05 AM ET
Actually, all morning and last night you've been posting that the Flyers top players didn't produce while the "real" top player of Boston did. Also how disciplined teams don't EVER, EVER let certain things happen. While ignoring that Boston let up multiple breakaways in the game. I pointed out to you that the PP is costing the team offensively and in last night's game. Now you're just parroting Bill with claims of I told you so.
- MJL



you're a dork
aantny88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Suck it Phaneuf, PA
Joined: 03.14.2008

Apr 7 @ 11:08 AM ET
I think he does. Remember, He's got two Olympic gold medals, a world cup, a hart and a vezina. He was considered the best for I'd say a 5 year span although he hasn't won a cup.

We forget, we lost a lot of veterans from the squad last year. Nisky, pitlick, Grant and Thompson.. Doesn't seem like a big loss, but these were reliable vets that could eat minutes, PK and play reliable d. We gambled that the kids were all ready..they weren't. It's snowballed into Hart losing confidence after those epic beat downs in March.

- Hextall271


I do forget about the Olympic medals and wonder if they factor in when the "committee" makes their decisions about who gets in and who doesn't. Hexy has a Vezina, Conn Smythe, franchise record holder for goalie wins, but will never sniff the Hall of Fame as a player.

You're right that it wouldn't have been a big loss when those vets went elsewhere if the younger players took the next step and Lindblom/Patrick had bounce back season, but unfortunately that didn't happen. Let's hope Hart gets his confidence back, because the goaltending position hasn't been solidified on this team for close to 35 years.


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