Well, I also see a team that had only one more point than the Flyers this regular season --the same team that lost to the Flyers in the playoffs last year (after throwing a scare into them) after squeaking in through the addition of play-ins and dismantling Pittsburgh -- is presently two wins away from the Cup Final even after an OT loss last game.

I see that the Flyers started out 11-4-3 despite not playing anything close to their best hockey. Part of what made this such a weird season is that the Flyers team analytics were awful when the team was 11-4-3 and were actually in the black in many key areas the rest of the way yet the club's record was awful because so damn many pucks ended up in their net and they were no longer outscoring their mistakes. That's a strange combination.

The Flyers aren't as close on paper right now as we'd want them to be -- I don't think anyone can credibly dispute that-- but they also aren't as far away as some think. Not everything that went wrong this season will stay broken just as not everything that improved so dramatically the year before will automatically snap back into place. Changes are needed and there will HAVE to be holdovers that also improve along the way.
- bmeltzer

Your opinion is appreciated. I see it just a little differently. Same core players year after year, with new excuses year after year.

Well I do not think the flyers "best" hockey is anywhere near good enough. Yes there will be holdovers as that is expected.

How far away do you think they are? There are too many holes to fill and it will not get filled in 1 off season. Along with the holes way too many question marks.

They have talented players. No doubt. You know what so does pretty much every team. Take the flyers 6 core players (whoever you think thayt is) then compare to 6 from other teams. Where stack up?

As Bill laid out, the Couturier situation is a simple and easy decision. The tough decision is going to be with Giroux. I fully expect a quality season from Giroux putting up around 70 points or so. If he does, is he going to take the team friendly deal that the team would need to re-sign him? If he's not, then he is the player to explore trading. What if they're in a strong playoff spot? Very tricky situation.
- MJL

I am positive G will want to stay in Philly and take a team friendly deal as long as there is a commitment in the front office to win now. I however am not confident G will put up 70 points unless he starts to shoot more and the PP dramatically improves.

As Bill laid out, the Couturier situation is a simple and easy decision. The tough decision is going to be with Giroux. I fully expect a quality season from Giroux putting up around 70 points or so. If he does, is he going to take the team friendly deal that the team would need to re-sign him? If he's not, then he is the player to explore trading. What if they're in a strong playoff spot? Very tricky situation.
- MJL

It is not tricky. Unless your one of those well anything can happen people once in the playoffs. Unless this team shows they are a true cup contender you move him. They wont as they want playoff revenue.

I am positive G will want to stay in Philly and take a team friendly deal as long as there is a commitment in the front office to win now. I however am not confident G will put up 70 points unless he starts to shoot more and the PP dramatically improves.
- jd250

I would be surprised if Giroux does not score around 70 points next season. Barring injury issues. If I was him and had that kind of season, I wouldn't take a major pay cut.

Bill, nobody is saying Couturier is not a good player.

What they are saying his value is the highest it will ever be and that the FLyers should capitalize on it.

Trading Couturier can bring in that defenseman they need and a young forward. Maybe a decent pick as well, which can help tempt Seattle to take a bigger contract off our hands in the expansion draft.

Also, resigning Couturier affects the salary cap.

And nobody is addressing where that money is coming from while resigning these players this and next summer: Remember, the moves you make this summer affect cap space for next summer,

Hart
Backup goalie
Sanheim
Farabee
Frost
Defenseman(paired with Provorov)
Replacing Giroux whose contract is up next summer.

Also, for the record, you ignored the fact that there are plenty of players who have lost a step and had production drop as they entered their late 20's and early 30's.

I use Simmonds as an example since he played for the Flyers.

John Leclair's goal scoring took a nose dive around 30-31.

There are players whose production drops around that age. The wear and tear catches up to them and they also naturally age out.

You can't be one-sided and point out players who continue to do well and ignore those who who struggle.

Afterall, how is the contract that Jeff Skinner signed with Buffalo looking? 29 years old and goal scoring took a nose-dive the last 2 years. A $9 million cap hit for 6 more years.

Sam Reinhart had no problem scoring 25 in 54 games last season with the same Buffalo team. He is 25.


The Flyers traded Mark Recchi, who was YOUNGER and BETTER than Couturier, whose last 2 seasons with the Flyers scored back to back 100 point seasons. Including a Flyers team record 123 point season and a 50 goal season.

This trade directly changed the Flyers from missing the playoffs 5 years in a row to making the playoffs 10 years in a row.....including a Finals appearance.

All started by trading a player who was young and superior to Couturier.

I'm with you in spirit but not in reality. I think there is no doubt that the Flyers between internal improvement and a few moves can be greatly improved as a team. However becoming a true contender with what's done this off season is not really reality. The caveat is if Hart has a great season, that could really lift the team. He has the ability but I don't think that is a sustainable way to contend. I think it's still all about the young players and how long it takes and how well they develop. Just as it has always been.
- MJL

I agree that not everything on this team can be fixed in one off season, but I still believe Fletcher has to initiate a big step forward this off season, if for no other reason than to keep his job. I don't want any panic moves, but Fletcher has got to change the makeup of this veteran core which I believe is the root of all the problems on this team. The slow starts, inconsistent play, lazy back checks, constant turnovers, not ready to play, downward spiral once any bad thing happens; these are traits of this culture that I am afraid will rub off on our younger players unless something is done and done now. I don't want to go into next season with Jake, JVR and Ghost on this roster, and if I were Fletcher, this would be my top priority.

Bill, nobody is saying Couturier is not a good player.

What they are saying his value is the highest it will ever be and that the FLyers should capitalize on it.

Trading Couturier can bring in that defenseman they need and a young forward. Maybe a decent pick as well, which can help tempt Seattle to take a bigger contract off our hands in the expansion draft.

Also, resigning Couturier affects the salary cap.

And nobody is addressing where that money is coming from while resigning these players this and next summer: Remember, the moves you make this summer affect cap space for next summer,

Hart
Backup goalie
Sanheim
Farabee
Frost
Defenseman(paired with Provorov)
Replacing Giroux whose contract is up next summer.

Also, for the record, you ignored the fact that there are plenty of players who have lost a step and had production drop as they entered their late 20's and early 30's.

I use Simmonds as an example since he played for the Flyers.

John Leclair's goal scoring took a nose dive around 30-31.

There are players whose production drops around that age. The wear and tear catches up to them and they also naturally age out.

You can't be one-sided and point out players who continue to do well and ignore those who who struggle.

Afterall, how is the contract that Jeff Skinner signed with Buffalo looking? 29 years old and goal scoring took a nose-dive the last 2 years. A $9 million cap hit for 6 more years.

Sam Reinhart had no problem scoring 25 in 54 games last season with the same Buffalo team. He is 25.


The Flyers traded Mark Recchi, who was YOUNGER and BETTER than Couturier, whose last 2 seasons with the Flyers scored back to back 100 point seasons. Including a Flyers team record 123 point season and a 50 goal season.

This trade directly changed the Flyers from missing the playoffs 5 years in a row to making the playoffs 10 years in a row.....including a Finals appearance.

All started by trading a player who was young and superior to Couturier.
- Captain_Ahab

In my opinion, the argument of " a players value will never be higher" so they should trade him is really not a sensible argument.

The Flyers got extremely lucky in the Recchi to Montreal trade.

I agree that not everything on this team can be fixed in one off season, but I still believe Fletcher has to initiate a big step forward this off season, if for no other reason than to keep his job. I don't want any panic moves, but Fletcher has got to change the makeup of this veteran core which I believe is the root of all the problems on this team. The slow starts, inconsistent play, lazy back checks, constant turnovers, not ready to play, downward spiral once any bad thing happens; these are traits of this culture that I am afraid will rub off on our younger players unless something is done and done now. I don't want to go into next season with Jake, JVR and Ghost on this roster, and if I were Fletcher, this would be my top priority.
- jd250

Exactly what I'm talking about. Expecting all 3 to not be on the team this upcoming season, just isn't reality in my opinion.

It is not tricky. Unless your one of those well anything can happen people once in the playoffs. Unless this team shows they are a true cup contender you move him. They wont as they want playoff revenue.
- hello it's me 2050

Do you think that if the Flyers are in a strong playoff position next season they should still deal Giroux?

I think for sure there have been instances where I question the leadership on the team. However over his career, it is not accurate to say that is on Giroux. I think the issue now is that he is no longer the player that can strap a team on his back and carry them.
- MJL

I have been hard on G because in my experience the player wearing the 'C' sets the tone. I can't tell you how many times I showed up to practice not wanting to work, but I did work hard anyway because I didn't want to face my captain afterwards. I understand Pro hockey is probably very different, and that leadership comes from more than just one player. I also understand and believe G wants to win badly and sets a good example for the rest, even if he is quiet. That is why I want to focus on moving out some of the other veterans on this team, and bring in different veteran voices with different perspectives, like what the Flyers apparently got from Niskanen when he was here.

Exactly what I'm talking about. Expecting all 3 to not be on the team this upcoming season, just isn't reality in my opinion.
- MJL

At the time the Flyers were trading the better, more established player with Recchi. No one knew, except maybe Clarke and his scouts, that Desjardin and LeClair would be as good as they were. I think Clarke took a big risk here and it paid off. It could have easily gone the other way and been a disaster. The Flyers are not in the same situation now, they have no prime Mark Recchi on their roster currently to deal.

I agree that not everything on this team can be fixed in one off season, but I still believe Fletcher has to initiate a big step forward this off season, if for no other reason than to keep his job. I don't want any panic moves, but Fletcher has got to change the makeup of this veteran core which I believe is the root of all the problems on this team. The slow starts, inconsistent play, lazy back checks, constant turnovers, not ready to play, downward spiral once any bad thing happens; these are traits of this culture that I am afraid will rub off on our younger players unless something is done and done now. I don't want to go into next season with Jake, JVR and Ghost on this roster, and if I were Fletcher, this would be my top priority.
- jd250

I just don't think this is even remotely realistic. I think best case scenario is that one is taken in the draft, and one is traded. But most likely at best we can hope one is gone. In either case I don't think that player is Voracek. Too much cap at too much term. And i dont think the Flyers are in a position to be weakening the team AND retaining the amount of salary I BELIEVE it would take to deal Voracek.

At the time the Flyers were trading the better, more established player with Recchi. No one knew, except maybe Clarke and his scouts, that Desjardin and LeClair would be as good as they were. I think Clarke took a big risk here and it paid off. It could have easily gone the other way and been a disaster. The Flyers are not in the same situation now, they have no prime Mark Recchi on their roster currently to deal.
- jd250

No, they knew Desjardins was as good as he was, which is why they made the trade. They thought with LeClair, that they were getting a hard physical 20 goal forward. They didn't know they were getting a 50 goal monster power forward who would mesh so well with Lindros.

It is not tricky. Unless your one of those well anything can happen people once in the playoffs. Unless this team shows they are a true cup contender you move him. They wont as they want playoff revenue.
- hello it's me 2050

If the Flyers are out of it next year, I would consider trading Giroux with a wink, to gain assets, with an agreement to resign G at a team friendly deal during the off season. Otherwise, G is not going anywhere.

I agree that not everything on this team can be fixed in one off season, but I still believe Fletcher has to initiate a big step forward this off season, if for no other reason than to keep his job. I don't want any panic moves, but Fletcher has got to change the makeup of this veteran core which I believe is the root of all the problems on this team. The slow starts, inconsistent play, lazy back checks, constant turnovers, not ready to play, downward spiral once any bad thing happens; these are traits of this culture that I am afraid will rub off on our younger players unless something is done and done now. I don't want to go into next season with Jake, JVR and Ghost on this roster, and if I were Fletcher, this would be my top priority.
- jd250

Well that is the scary part. He knows he is on the clock. So how worried will he be thinking out 4 years down the line. He has to "win" now.

Do you think that if the Flyers are in a strong playoff position next season they should still deal Giroux?
- MBFlyerfan

I said unless they are a legit cup contender I move him.

I said unless they are a legit cup contender I move him.
- hello it's me 2050

So the answer is yes? They should move him even if they are going to make the playoffs?

I agree that not everything on this team can be fixed in one off season, but I still believe Fletcher has to initiate a big step forward this off season, if for no other reason than to keep his job. I don't want any panic moves, but Fletcher has got to change the makeup of this veteran core which I believe is the root of all the problems on this team. The slow starts, inconsistent play, lazy back checks, constant turnovers, not ready to play, downward spiral once any bad thing happens; these are traits of this culture that I am afraid will rub off on our younger players unless something is done and done now. I don't want to go into next season with Jake, JVR and Ghost on this roster, and if I were Fletcher, this would be my top priority.
- jd250

I think you see JVR and Ghost gone.

So the answer is yes? They should move him even if they are going to make the playoffs?
- MBFlyerfan

Yes. Is that the goal now to just make the playoffs?

I'm not concerned about the 30yo - 33/34 yo Couturier. I'm concerned about the 35yo-38yo version at possibly plus $10MM (which I do not believe is that far fetched). The cherry picked examples that were provided all had contracts ending at the player's 34-36 age year. Coututier's will end around 38. Plus you can only have so many mega contracts at a time. Plannng is critical in this area. I also do nt believe you sell your future for a run at a championship becasue Giroux is nearing the end of his career. He is a very good/great player that has also been extremely consistent as far as production goes, but he does not strike me as "winner"; he does not have the IT factor

I'm not concerned about the 30yo - 33/34 yo Couturier. I'm concerned about the 35yo-38yo version at possibly plus $10MM (which I do not believe is that far fetched). The cherry picked examples that were provided all had contracts ending at the player's 34-36 age year. Coututier's will end around 38. Plus you can only have so many mega contracts at a time. Plannng is critical in this area. I also do nt believe you sell your future for a run at a championship becasue Giroux is nearing the end of his career. He is a very good/great player that has also been extremely consistent as far as production goes, but he does not strike me as "winner"; he does not have the IT factor
- mr4tno

How dare you suggest such a thing. Way off base.

Yes. Is that the goal now to just make the playoffs?
- hello it's me 2050

Ok, thanks for answering. I just wanted to get a clear answer from you.

I cant wait to see how the fanbase would react to this team trading Claude Giroux (at the deadline I would assume?) when they are in the playoff hunt.

That would truly be a remarkable thing to see. Especially if it was to another team in the playoff hunt.

Can you imagine Giroux waiving his NMC to do that? (I guess you could)

Wow, can you imagine the carnage that would have resulted back in the day if Flyers had put out a lineup that included Boulerice, Brown, Fedoruk, Laperriere, Shelley, Daniels, and Chychrun?!!

Eric Desjardins was already a good all around defenceman with Montreal.

John LeClair was targeted for 20-25 goals a year with the FLyers.

Dionne turned out to be nothing, so LeClair hitting made up for this.

The FLyers were a bad team that missed the playoffs 5 years in a row so they had to shake things up.

Similar to where the Flyers are now, missing the playoffs or losing in the first round 8 of the last 9 years.

No, they knew Desjardins was as good as he was, which is why they made the trade. They thought with LeClair, that they were getting a hard physical 20 goal forward. They didn't know they were getting a 50 goal monster power forward who would mesh so well with Lindros.
- MJL

Its interesting to note Pittsburgh had Lemieux, Stevens, Recchi and Coffey but didn't have the ingredients necessary to win a cup until they traded Recchi for Tocchet and Samuelsson in 1992; then they won 2 cups. The Flyers had Lindros and Recchi but were not getting to the next level until they traded Recchi in 1995 and got Desjardin and LeClair., and then got to the finals in 1997. Unfortunately for the Flyers right now, there is no Lemieux or Lindros on their roster to build around. That is their number 1 issue IMO. I am not saying you need a generational talent, but you do need a strong core to build around, and that is what the Flyers lack. I agree the hope is they have to draft better than they did under Hextall and develop this core and build around it.