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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Musings & Quick Hits: Couturier, Showcase Roster, TIFH and More
Author Message
bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:33 PM ET
Yes, he was the GM for 4 years and I have watched his top picks play in the NHL. He supplied quality young talent for this team.
- MJL


Well if all you are looking for is top picks to play, you set the bar low.
hello it's me 2050
Location: AR
Joined: 05.14.2021

Jun 22 @ 12:34 PM ET
either that or quote the bible.

absolute clown.

- Ftown19125

Look at stronzo.

Proverbs 6:12
A worthless person, a wicked man, goes about with crooked speech
bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:34 PM ET
He actually has a decent shot. The issue is that Voracek sometimes passes the puck at the net instead of shooting it. It's unnerving.
- MJL


I actually like his one timer, his wrister leaves a little to be desired
jd250
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 01.12.2018

Jun 22 @ 12:36 PM ET
Did you see him on the nasty knuckles podcast, basically saying he gets paid to score, not play D. Also mentioned how he doesnt have a good shot, thats why he passes so much
- bradster

Yes I did ... out of his own mouth, this is why you have to move on from him immediately! He gets paid to score, well if that is true he should give half his money back!
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:36 PM ET
Well if all you are looking for is top picks to play, you set the bar low.
- bradster





Actually I'm using the bar that you set.

"Only using 1st and 2nd round pick because those have the biggest impacts."
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jun 22 @ 12:36 PM ET
Bill Meltzer: Musings & Quick Hits: Couturier, Showcase Roster, TIFH and More
- bmeltzer


Bill, possessing the misplaced zeal of arguing on the Internet in contemporary times has taught me one overriding thing. People who do it almost never change their positions, irrespective of how often a logical case is presented for the alternative. It is not really a forum for discussions. It is a forum for venting your personal views, sort of like primal scream therapy.

It is however disappointing when the same affliction spreads to the blogger as well. Maybe you are just going for the clicks. However, the arguments you provided for the trade Couturier camp are incomplete. The arguments you made for the keep Couturier side are illogical.

I will address the points you make one by one in separate posts, for easier discussion. In doing so, I am largely repeating the same points I have already made many times., such as, for instance, here:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...post_id=21473842#21473842

This time however, I will use your words to address specific issues.

PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jun 22 @ 12:37 PM ET
1.

There is a segment of the Flyers fan base that advocates for trading Sean Couturier this offseason strictly because he is 28 years old (he will turn 29 on Dec. 7) his next contract will see him get a significant raise on his underpaid ($4.33 million AAV) deal signed back in 2015, and the term will take him into his mid-30s.
.
.
.
The point here is that shying away from re-signing a key player on your team solely because he's now in his late 20s is a defeatist and, quite frankly, illogical framework. These decisions must be made on a case-by-case basis.

- bmeltzer


No Bill, that is not all the reasons. It is also the team he happens to be on. If that team did not have Hayes signed with a NMC, or had other pieces which were like comparable pieces in top teams (wingers like Tarasenko or Marchand or 1D guys like Doughty, to use the context of some of the players you mentioned), I would never advocate for the trading of Couturier. It is the reasons you provided and the CONTEXT OF TEAM that is relevant here. The absence of proven supporting pieces compounds the inherent uncertainties of Couturier's contract.

You are not going to win a cup with 2 30ish+ centers likely your top 2/3 centers with large salary hits. No team has ever done so.
Captain_Ahab
Joined: 03.23.2017

Jun 22 @ 12:38 PM ET
Matthew Tkachuk

Turns 24 next season.

Konecny, Farabee, Frost. Tkachuk. With York and Provorov on defense.

That's a good young group there.

But if he really was available, his trade price would be high.




bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:39 PM ET


Actually I'm using the bar that you set.

"Only using 1st and 2nd round pick because those have the biggest impacts."

- MJL


so then ratcliffe ginning, obrien rubstov laberge all count , great
hello it's me 2050
Location: AR
Joined: 05.14.2021

Jun 22 @ 12:39 PM ET
Bill, possessing the misplaced zeal of arguing on the Internet in contemporary times has taught me one overriding thing. People who do it almost never change their positions, irrespective of how often a logical case is presented for the alternative. It is not really a forum for discussions. It is a forum for venting your personal views, sort of like primal scream therapy.

It is however disappointing when the same affliction spreads to the blogger as well. Maybe you are just going for the clicks. However, the arguments you provided for the trade Couturier camp are incomplete. The arguments you made for the keep Couturier side are illogical.

I will address the points you make one by one in separate posts, for easier discussion. In doing so, I am largely repeating the same points I have already made many times., such as, for instance, here:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...post_id=21473842#21473842

This time however, I will use your words to address specific issues.

- PT21

Looking forward to reading it. Have a blessed day.
wcorvette
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Joined: 10.03.2010

Jun 22 @ 12:39 PM ET
True, but he was never a burner, so I don't think there would be much drop off from something that was never there. Coots strength is his hockey sense. He is always where he is supposed to be and I don't see that suddenly changing.
- MBFlyerfan


what some don't recognize is puck protection skills. Coots really took off when he learned how to use his body to protect the puck. That won't go away, that with with his hockey IQ and I have zero reservations about his "legs"
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jun 22 @ 12:43 PM ET
2.

Patrice Bergeron ...How about Anze Kopitar? ..Ryan O'Reilly turned 30...Nicklas Bäckström ...Blake Wheeler iT.J. Oshie ...Claude Giroux...
- bmeltzer


Bill, cherry picking exceptions to further your case is not the soundest way to do so. Capt. Ahab has already provided examples of the reverse.

In general, you have to look at overall trends. There, the fact that performance starts to decline for NHL forwards at that age is relevant. If we don't use that statistic, we are essentially arguing about the soundness of smoking as a health practice by pointing out smokers who lived a long and healthy life.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jun 22 @ 12:44 PM ET
3.

Some fans -- the ones who don't see to understand that drafting early, year after year, is still far from a guarantee of team success even if one or two of the selections become superstars -- seem just fine with the idea of starting the clock on another rebuild.
- bmeltzer


Bill, bro, love and respect you to bits, but can we stop erecting this insane monument to guarantees already? Is there a guarantee that you will win WITH keeping Couturier in the fold? Is there a guarantee you will win without tanking? Why invoke this condition for only 1 side of the story?

How many decisions in life did you take with a guarantee? Did you have a guarantee that things will work out when you left the academic path and took up sports journalism? Does any business owner start a business with a guarantee of success?

The question is, what do the odds say? And here, I am afraid, the evidence is not in your favor. We have discussed this many times before, so I will not provide yet another probability argument.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:44 PM ET
1.



No Bill, that is not all the reasons. It is also the team he happens to be on. If that team did not have Hayes signed with a NMC, or had other pieces which were like comparable pieces in top teams (wingers like Tarasenko or Marchand or 1D guys like Doughty, to use the context of some of the players you mentioned), I would never advocate for the trading of Couturier. It is the reasons you provided and the CONTEXT OF TEAM that is relevant here. The absence of proven supporting pieces compounds the inherent uncertainties of Couturier's contract.

You are not going to win a cup with 2 30ish+ centers likely your top 2/3 centers with large salary hits. No team has ever done so.

- PT21


The quote that you posted from Bill is accurate. He is correct in stating that there is a group of fans who don't want to sign Couturier due to his age. He did not in any way state that is all the reasons why some don't want to re-sign Couturier.
There are many issues that are relevant or are you the only person who decides what is relevant?
I'm going to do some research later on to see if you last claim is correct.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:48 PM ET
so then ratcliffe ginning, obrien rubstov laberge all count , great
- bradster


Sure. So Hextall was GM from 2014 through what 2018? So far as far as 2nd round picks are concerned, we know Hart is an NHL player. Allison showed real potential. Nik Aube-Kubel is an NHL player. So if Allison hits that's 3 NHL players in 5 drafts out of the 2nd round. That's pretty good. None of that counts other players that can play in the NHL including Oskar Lindblom as a 5th round pick. We still don't know about O'Brien and others.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jun 22 @ 12:48 PM ET
4.

As far as trading Couturier goes, he would be an extremely hard player to replace in the Flyers' lineup. Perennial Selke candidates who are also two-time 30 goal scorers and bankable to score at least in the mid-20s in an 82-game season are hardly easy to find.
- bmeltzer


This is arguably the most disappointing of all the things you wrote. For the case you make for keeping Couturier seems to utterly based on regular season performance and there is no comprehensive discussion at all about how keeping him furthers our chances of winning the cup.

I leave you with this thought/question

How does Couturier's post-season production stack up with the names you mentioned? Wouldn't Ryan O'Reilly be a better aspiration, since his performance exceeds that of Couturier and he has won a cup?

Would you sign Ryan O'Reilly to a huge contract now on this team if he was an UFA?

MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:49 PM ET
2.



Bill, cherry picking exceptions to further your case is not the soundest way to do so. Capt. Ahab has already provided examples of the reverse.

In general, you have to look at overall trends. There, the fact that performance starts to decline for NHL forwards at that age is relevant. If we don't use that statistic, we are essentially arguing about the soundness of smoking as a health practice by pointing out smokers who lived a long and healthy life.

- PT21


Decline does not automatically equal a player no longer being a quality player.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:51 PM ET
4.



This is arguably the most disappointing of all the things you wrote. For the case you make for keeping Couturier seems to utterly based on regular season performance and there is no comprehensive discussion at all about how keeping him furthers our chances of winning the cup.

I leave you with this thought/question

How does Couturier's post-season production stack up with the names you mentioned? Wouldn't Ryan O'Reilly be a better aspiration, since his performance exceeds that of Couturier and he has won a cup?

Would you sign Ryan O'Reilly to a huge contract now on this team if he was an UFA?

- PT21


Bill's answer to that is contained in his blog. He mentioned O'Reilly as a player that has remained a quality player and does not look to be regressing into his 30's. Nothing is disappointing in what Bill wrote. He is exactly correct in everything he stated. This fixation on odds and probabilities has led you astray. You only look at the odds on one side. For example never considering how many teams who have superstars at the top of the lineup have failed to win.
bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:52 PM ET
Sure. So Hextall was GM from 2014 through what 2018? So far as far as 2nd round picks are concerned, we know Hart is an NHL player. Allison showed real potential. Nik Aube-Kubel is an NHL player. So if Allison hits that's 3 NHL players in 5 drafts out of the 2nd round. That's pretty good. None of that counts other players that can play in the NHL including Oskar Lindblom as a 5th round pick. We still don't know about O'Brien and others.
- MJL


Saying NAK is a hit, is a stretch. But as i said you set the bar low if all you want is a roster player. I prefer more. But we can agree to disagree on Hextalls track record, you think he did extemely well, i would say extremely average, or worse. The funny thing is some people here say something, perhaps by mistake or misjudged then will stand corrected. You have never changed your mind on your thoughts. Even when shown facts. Admirable
hello it's me 2050
Location: AR
Joined: 05.14.2021

Jun 22 @ 12:53 PM ET
Sure. So Hextall was GM from 2014 through what 2018? So far as far as 2nd round picks are concerned, we know Hart is an NHL player. Allison showed real potential. Nik Aube-Kubel is an NHL player. So if Allison hits that's 3 NHL players in 5 drafts out of the 2nd round. That's pretty good. None of that counts other players that can play in the NHL including Oskar Lindblom as a 5th round pick. We still don't know about O'Brien and others.
- MJL
His most recent body of work suggest otherwise.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:54 PM ET
Saying NAK is a hit, is a stretch. But as i said you set the bar low if all you want is a roster player. I prefer more. But we can agree to disagree on Hextalls track record, you think he did extemely well, i would say extremely average, or worse. The funny thing is some people here say something, perhaps by mistake or misjudged then will stand corrected. You have never changed your mind on your thoughts. Even when shown facts. Admirable
- bradster


It's not a stretch. He is an NHL player. Anytime you get a legit NHL player with a second round pick, you have made a good selection. You haven't given any facts to change my mind. You haven't given any facts period. You set a bar for 1st and 2nd round picks and then ask why I didn't consider later rounds.
bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:55 PM ET
It's not a stretch. He is an NHL player. Anytime you get a legit NHL player with a second round pick, you have made a good selection. You haven't given any facts to change my mind. You haven't given any facts period. You set a bar for 1st and 2nd round picks and then ask why I didn't consider later rounds.

- MJL


i didnt ask that
wcorvette
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Joined: 10.03.2010

Jun 22 @ 12:56 PM ET
Sure. So Hextall was GM from 2014 through what 2018? So far as far as 2nd round picks are concerned, we know Hart is an NHL player. Allison showed real potential. Nik Aube-Kubel is an NHL player. So if Allison hits that's 3 NHL players in 5 drafts out of the 2nd round. That's pretty good. None of that counts other players that can play in the NHL including Oskar Lindblom as a 5th round pick. We still don't know about O'Brien and others.
- MJL


can't argue he drafted NHL players and did a good job, still a B- for me but that could change this season, good or bad. So far, he didn't hit on any game changers. My assumption is most don't
bradster
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 12.18.2009

Jun 22 @ 12:56 PM ET
It's not a stretch. He is an NHL player. Anytime you get a legit NHL player with a second round pick, you have made a good selection. You haven't given any facts to change my mind. You haven't given any facts period. You set a bar for 1st and 2nd round picks and then ask why I didn't consider later rounds.

- MJL


again, setting the bar low.
landros 2
Season Ticket Holder
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe
Joined: 02.07.2007

Jun 22 @ 12:57 PM ET
Yet you know enough to determine that Hextall drafted “extremely well”. I guess if you only mention the successful picks and the yet undetermined picks that is so. IMO Hextall was average at drafting.
- Djapana



There are no picks that jump out and say....wow....how did we get him.....EVERY team in the NHL has young guys that are being asked to play bigger rolls....thats what a cap system does. The Flyers younger players (sans Farabee) didn't do a very good job last year at all. As the results start to trickle in on Hextall's reign with regards to draft picks the reviews are mixed at best with a couple of bad misses up top. He sure as hell ain't the draft whisperer that some continue to make him out to be.
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