Bill's answer to that is contained in his blog. He mentioned O'Reilly as a player that has remained a quality player and does not look to be regressing into his 30's. Nothing is disappointing in what Bill wrote. He is exactly correct in everything he stated. This fixation on odds and probabilities has led you astray. You only look at the odds on one side. For example never considering how many teams who have superstars at the top of the lineup have failed to win.
- MJL

I find Bill mentioning Coots who is considered one of the best 2 way forwards in the league, with the players he did to be completely appropriate.

can't argue he drafted NHL players and did a good job, still a B- for me but that could change this season, good or bad. So far, he didn't hit on any game changers. My assumption is most don't
- wcorvette

We'll see with Hart. I think the Flyers would really be in bad shape without Provorov. The big blemish is obviously Patrick but as I've said before, based on the known info at the time, I can't fault him for making that selection.

By some fans ... ehhh .. you mean 'PT21'
- jd250[] [] I love it!

I'm with you Bill, I also am NOT fine with it. Rebuilds are for Pu$$ys! Instead let's make some good hockey trades, hard decisions, take a few risks, and let's ice a team that contends now!

Dude, not risking bad years for the sake of the continued mediocrity is the definition of being a wuss.

Keeping Couturier is the equivalent of never daring to start a business because the job in the post-office is too safe.

I find Bill mentioning Coots who is considered one of the best 2 way forwards in the league, with the players he did to be completely appropriate.
- wcorvette

Absolutely but what are the probabilities and odds?

can't argue he drafted NHL players and did a good job, still a B- for me but that could change this season, good or bad. So far, he didn't hit on any game changers. My assumption is most don't
- wcorvette

what team in the NHL doesn't have young guys drafted in the last 5 years playing for them? lol....any?

can't argue he drafted NHL players and did a good job, still a B- for me but that could change this season, good or bad. So far, he didn't hit on any game changers. My assumption is most don't
- wcorvette

Rantanen or Barzal couldve been game changers, perhaps kandre miller, time will tell
Hindsight is easy, drafting isnt an exact science. Thats why im giving him an Average.

yeah moving the goal post my ass. Go flyers. Will you buy a Seth Jones jersey if the Flyer acquire him? Anytime you want to talk hockey you let me know.

Only 4 or 5? Surely your mistaken
- hello it's me 2050

Nah, I only have a blank home and away. No more player jerseys for me. I have too many for players who aren't here any more or retired.

Only using 1st and 2nd round pick because those have the biggest impacts.Dude, not risking bad years for the sake of the continued mediocrity is the definition of being a wuss.


- PT21

You fail to consider that trading Couturier is an equal, if not bigger risk. You assume that the prize at the end of the downside is going to be there.

Keeping Couturier is the equivalent of never daring to start a business because the job in the post-office is too safe.
- PT21

Another bad analogy. Keeping Couturier is daring to start a business.

Bergeron's career was almost over due to concussions at one point. Not many people remember that. Like Coots, he's been in the league since 18... ton of miles on him. Yet he's still dominating in his 30's.

The question isn't should they sign Coots or not.... it's basically a no-brainer if he's willing. The real question is how they plan to structure the deal. 8-years + NMC carries some enormous risks.
- Tomahawk

Sir, this is a hockey board. Kindly refrain from providing us with previews of your autobiography.

1.



No Bill, that is not all the reasons. It is also the team he happens to be on. If that team did not have Hayes signed with a NMC, or had other pieces which were like comparable pieces in top teams (wingers like Tarasenko or Marchand or 1D guys like Doughty, to use the context of some of the players you mentioned), I would never advocate for the trading of Couturier. It is the reasons you provided and the CONTEXT OF TEAM that is relevant here. The absence of proven supporting pieces compounds the inherent uncertainties of Couturier's contract.

You are not going to win a cup with 2 30ish+ centers likely your top 2/3 centers with large salary hits. No team has ever done so.
- PT21

This is a great point.

In the context of our team and crappy contracts......

I for one am really hoping that Bill sees PT21's posts and responds. It will be classic.

Dude, not risking bad years for the sake of the continued mediocrity is the definition of being a wuss.

Keeping Couturier is the equivalent of never daring to start a business because the job in the post-office is too safe.
- PT21

I just don't think they need a full rebuild and for (frank) sakes not another Hextall quasi re build.....take the assets you have and bring in some new guys to fill some of the gaping holes and build from there. that's why I don't think you have to move Coot's...but some other core pieces aren't really going to be part of a succesful future....we know that. Those are the guys you try to move IMO.

Sir, this is a hockey board. Kindly refrain from providing us with previews of your autobiography.
- PT21

What legitimate reason is there for this personal attack?

His most recent body of work suggest otherwise.
- hello it's me 2050

him have bad season. him bad.

This is a great point.

In the context of our team and crappy contracts......
- DrMidnite

It's actually a bad point. It assumes facts not in evidence. It assumes that none of the Flyers young players are going to develop into top players to compliment Couturier as a player moving forward. It's completely blind to the possibilities of the future.

Bill this is status quo…

So let’s play devils advocate… I think everyone will agree coots if signed in Philly getting max term 8+ mil yearly. You have comparable examples in styles of play kopitar Bergy oreilly. One cup between them in how many years? (Binnington cough cough) so do you believe nhl hasn’t moved past those type 2 way centers winning cups as 1c role?

Also being that it’s gonna be max term deal and at the cap # how does that play out if in a few years the production goes done (not greatest to begin with) or want/need to move his contract? You’d be fine committing to years old 34-37? That mid to late 30’s for over half the contract term?

Define what your strong playoff positon is. Top 4 in conference?

We disagree. If they are just going to make the playoffs I move him. It is about the future. Or it should be. They won't so it is a moot point.

If they are out of it there isn't any conundrum. It is really simple. You ask for a list of teams. The GM probably doesn't have the balls to ask however.
- hello it's me 2050

You cant win the cup if you are dealing players for the future when competing for a playoff spot...... If you operate that way you are pretty much rebuilding constantly

If you are going into the playoffs, you need your top Vets.

Of course you would agree, since you are the same person.

- MBFlyerfan

True^^^^ 😂

I just don't think they need a full rebuild and for (frank) sakes not another Hextall quasi re build.....take the assets you have and bring in some new guys to fill some of the gaping holes and build from there. that's why I don't think you have to move Coot's...but some other core pieces aren't really going to be part of a succesful future....we know that. Those are the guys you try to move IMO.
- landros 2

Fair enough. I respect you, your pov, and likewise for Bill.

But there is a case for trading Couturier in the current situation Flyers find themself in. It is a solid one, supported both by probabilities and precedent (other teams have done it too). It is not outlandish.

We'll see with Hart. I think the Flyers would really be in bad shape without Provorov. The big blemish is obviously Patrick but as I've said before, based on the known info at the time, I can't fault him for making that selection.
- MJL

why I said this year could change the grade. I am not sure with Provy, most of me says the right partner has slowed his growth, hard to expect as much as they have since drafting him. If Hart hits, Provy becomes a true top 2 in the league and 1 more of the picks is among the best at the their position, I would say it was an A. It sure is taking a while

Patrick was the pick and they had been picking D or felt like they had their D and needed that big, skilled center.

You cant win the cup if you are dealing players for the future when competing for a playoff spot...... If you operate that way you are pretty much rebuilding constantly

If you are going into the playoffs, you need your top Vets.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Such as the trading away of superstar Jagr by the Pens leading to a succession of very high picks of Fluery and Sydney and Malkin.

Those guys never won anything. Utter failure, that move. That team: constant rebuild move ever since.

One year left at 7 million, then an RFA.

Interesting option. He is going to get PAID.
- MBFlyerfan

We have salary to shed.

why I said this year could change the grade. I am not sure with Provy, most of me says the right partner has slowed his growth, hard to expect as much as they have since drafting him. If Hart hits, Provy becomes a true top 2 in the league and 1 more of the picks is among the best at the their position, I would say it was an A. It sure is taking a while

Patrick was the pick and they had been picking D or felt like they had their D and needed that big, skilled center.
- wcorvette

Are you saying a top 2 dman in the entire league? Or a #2 on a top pair?

Bill, possessing the misplaced zeal of arguing on the Internet in contemporary times has taught me one overriding thing. People who do it almost never change their positions, irrespective of how often a logical case is presented for the alternative. It is not really a forum for discussions. It is a forum for venting your personal views, sort of like primal scream therapy.

It is however disappointing when the same affliction spreads to the blogger as well. Maybe you are just going for the clicks. However, the arguments you provided for the trade Couturier camp are incomplete. The arguments you made for the keep Couturier side are illogical.

I will address the points you make one by one in separate posts, for easier discussion. In doing so, I am largely repeating the same points I have already made many times., such as, for instance, here:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...post_id=21473842#21473842

This time however, I will use your words to address specific issues.
- PT21

To be fair the first part of your post is correct….but I dont see Bill’s response as being illogical. He also has a pulse on what the Flyers are actually thinking. I don’t always agree with him but it’s a position that differs from yours…that’s all. I actually understand yours and others position, I just think a rebuild isn’t necessary. I think they have enough assets to add some pieces that may make this team look a lot better, very quickly.

True, but he was never a burner, so I don't think there would be much drop off from something that was never there. Coots strength is his hockey sense. He is always where he is supposed to be and I don't see that suddenly changing.
- MBFlyerfan

Age along with speed are the biggest concerns of each player who plays hockey. It’s the circle of life. Younger more skilled players come in and older players become a shell of their former selves. Jordan Staal. Ryan Kessler. Let’s say the defensive awareness doesn’t slow down. The offense will. Bergeron with Marchand are creating two on one’s short handed. I don’t see Coots doing this today. My guess is, if you think Couturier is slow now, I wouldn’t rule out that he can’t get slower by his mid 30’s.