Oh yeah, the owners grew the game. You're hilarious.

Last time I checked, all the marketing tools in the NHL are on the NHLPA side. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, Brodeur, Price, etc. If these players don't play at elite levels and draw ridiculous amounts of attention then the league is nothing.

But, yeah, sure the owners did all the work. The salary cap saved hockey from crazy high contracts and floundering teams. Sure did. The cap is the reason that Phoenix made money, wait....I mean the cap is the reason Shane Doan got the 2.5 million contract he's worth...wait...
.
- trolleytracks

Yup. Those are the tools alright. And that's all they are. The tools. And there will always be a new, different set. It's what you do with them that counts.

Damn that was ugly!
- As_I_See_It

Nice to see Flynn get some reps though.

The players thought the same thing about the Salary Cap in 2004. Did Gary move off the cap even though it cost them a season? Given how that played out, who knew better how to grow the game, the owners or the NHLPA?
- Flyers_01

Why are we in a lockout then? If the Owner's are such experts? It was their plan that neccesitated a lockout.

You lost all credibility with me when you included Carey Price in this list.
- Emperor Filonius

Price is an elite goaltender. He's been the only bright spot on a rotten Canadiens team since he got there. I would have lost credibility if I had of mentioned Fleury.

Oh yeah, the owners grew the game. You're hilarious.

Last time I checked, all the marketing tools in the NHL are on the NHLPA side. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, Brodeur, Price, etc. If these players don't play at elite levels and draw ridiculous amounts of attention then the league is nothing.

But, yeah, sure the owners did all the work. The salary cap saved hockey from crazy high contracts and floundering teams. Sure did. The cap is the reason that Phoenix made money, wait....I mean the cap is the reason Shane Doan got the 2.5 million contract he's worth...wait...

The owners fought tooth and nail to get this CBA last time and now they want to fight tooth and nail again. (frank) them. They'll get their way this time, as usual, and they'll gripe about it again 7-10 years from now and blame it on the players once again and you sorry suckers will lap it right up.
- trolleytracks

Anyone want to bet there won't be another lockout after the next CBA ends?

Well said!

Yup. Those are the tools alright. And that's all they are. The tools. And there will always be a new, different set. It's what you do with them that counts.
- prock

Crosby and Ovechkin marketed the game on their own like very few players have done before them. Like or dislike either of them if it wasn't for them coming into the league after the last lockout who would the NHL have had as the faces of the league that would generate the income like those two?

Let me add that the only reason 70-80% of the people know the names of 2 russian hockey players, no matter how talented, is because they play in North America and the NHL marketed them to death. How many people do you think can name 3 KHL stars outside of the NHL players other than die hard international hockey fans? Bill Meltzer ( shameless plug) could probably name half the rosters on the teams but your average hockey fan would be hard pressed to name even one KHL player. I am no Bill Meltzer and I am happy to read about Flyers prospects in Europe but I have no desire to follow them myself. My only interest in them is what they bring to the Flyers, not what they bring to their European teams.
- Flyers_01

Did the skill and ability of those Russian players have anything to do with the NHL being able to market those players successfully?

Crosby and Ovechkin marketed the game on their own like very few players have done before them. Like or dislike either of them if it wasn't for them coming into the league after the last lockout who would the NHL have had as the faces of the league that would generate the income like those two?
- trolleytracks

No idea. But there would be someone. I guarantee it. Whoever is the best in the league. And there will always be someone that's best in the league.

Why are we in a lockout then? If the Owner's are such experts? It was their plan that neccesitated a lockout.
- MJL

Shouldnt you and Crosby be touching each other somewhere else?

Oh yeah, the owners grew the game. You're hilarious.

Last time I checked, all the marketing tools in the NHL are on the NHLPA side. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, Brodeur, Price, etc. If these players don't play at elite levels and draw ridiculous amounts of attention then the league is nothing.

But, yeah, sure the owners did all the work. The salary cap saved hockey from crazy high contracts and floundering teams. Sure did. The cap is the reason that Phoenix made money, wait....I mean the cap is the reason Shane Doan got the 2.5 million contract he's worth...wait...

The owners fought tooth and nail to get this CBA last time and now they want to fight tooth and nail again. (frank) them. They'll get their way this time, as usual, and they'll gripe about it again 7-10 years from now and blame it on the players once again and you sorry suckers will lap it right up.
- trolleytracks

You really are missing the point. Once upon a time pet rocks were marketed as the "big thing" by a marketing company. Were the rocks special? Were they made of some special rock? Were they Superman's weakness? No. Common rock with eyes glued on them but the marketers told you they were special and consumers believed they were special so the consumers threw bushels of money at the people who glued eyes on common rock. Betamax was technically superior product to VHS so why is it that Betamax died a quick death and VHS was around for decades? Superior marketting. More recently HD DVD died an untimely death vs Blueray. Do you know why Blueray won? Because Sony gave away a free blueray player with every PS3. They took a loss on the early units to make their technology the standard. It wasn't because Blueray was "the best", it was because a large segment of people already owned them via PS3. They made it more expensive for people to switch to HD DVD.

For the love of god, do not believe everything marketting departments try to sell you. Do not buy a reverse mortgage, you can live without the latest electronic gadget and sports leagues will not collapse if the players that the leagues spend millions of dollars marketing don't exist. I reiterate that the only reason you think the NHL can't exist without Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin is because of all the time and money they've invested in projecting that image. It is in their interests to do so when those players are in the league. If those players weren't in the league those millions of marketing dollars would go somewhere else.

Yup. Those are the tools alright. And that's all they are. The tools. And there will always be a new, different set. It's what you do with them that counts.
- prock

so whenever the lockout gets settled you will be the one looking up at the owners box all night. Staring at Tanenbaum(sp) with lust in your eyes because you watch hockey just to get a glimps of him? Whatever floats your boat I guess

No idea. But there would be someone. I guarantee it. Whoever is the best in the league. And there will always be someone that's best in the league.
- prock

and there's someone that's best in the ahl, and echl to. exposure certainly plays a factor in it, but i'm thinking if mike zigomanis is one of the premiere nhl elite level stars, alot less tickets are going to be sold, and both sides are going to make alot less money.

the players are the merchandise. all these 'i'd watch anyone, it's the jersey that sells the game' arguments are a pile of poop. with an nhl lockout in place i don't see ahl and echl players and teams signing massive endorsement deals, and network partnerships to promote the next best class of 'faces of the game'.

Why are we in a lockout then? If the Owner's are such experts? It was their plan that neccesitated a lockout.
- MJL

I explained that and while i said they, as a collective are experts, nowhere did i say they were infallible. What I did say is that if the owners had tried to go 50/50 in 2005 the players would have sat out a second year. Do you disagree with that statement?

Shouldnt you and Crosby be touching each other somewhere else?
- Cheeseballin

Why don't you tell him about the spot you and Gary go all the time

Why is the NHL better Hockey then the AHL? Because there are better players in the NHL versus the AHL.

.
- MJL

...and WHY are those players in the NHL? (not versus the AHL specifically, but more to address how the *players* make the NHL what it is)

Because there are 30 owners, paying more money and providing better working conditions to the players.

The OWNERS provide the product, because they pay for it. Do you think any foreign players would be in the NHL if that were not true. Do you think most of the North Americans would even be here?

Fehr is a clown. Bettman cost the NHL a entire season to get the deal he wanted. That he said will work. Now he says its unfair(which it is) This combined with his continued hard on for keeping teams in markets that simply don't have a decent fan base, just because he has a big ego. Make him an absolute problem. I have never once supported Fehr during the lockout. I simply pick the players to side with rather then the owners(anybody who denies both are very much in the wrong, is just blame stupid) for 2 reasons. 1) the rollback. 8 yrs ago they got a 25% rollback. Now they want it again? So not only do they want the players to give back on this CBA. They want them to give back on the one that cost us a season to get the bettman deal? 2) the owners putting all the blame for their failures on the CBA rather then get rid of the guy who has caused this mess
- Bieksa#3

that pretty much sums it up...

Bettman should spend as much energy and thought on actually trying to negotiate a deal - rather than on posturing to try and make himself look better than Fehr.

I'm sure even the New York media is quick enough to figure out that it was when both Fehr and Bettman were out of the picture that some progress was made.

I've said it before - I'll say it again.

Three player reps, three owners/governers/GMs and one media hack .. head off the Red Deer, or Shawinigan, St John's or Kamloops. Make the deal, shape the deal ... then make Gary "call me Napoleon" Bettman and Fehr flyin to "jointly" announce it, simultaneously announce they are both "retiring" - Gary to take an ownership stake in the Phoenix franchise (which he will immediate sell the highest bidder) and Fehr to get in shape for spring training.

Why don't you tell him about the spot you and Gary go all the time
- Bieksa#3

My bedroom. Love me my Gary

You really are missing the point. Once upon a time pet rocks were marketed as the "big thing" by a marketing company. Were the rocks special? Were they made of some special rock? Were they Superman's weakness? No. Common rock with eyes glued on them but the marketers told you they were special and consumers believed they were special so the consumers threw bushels of money at the people who glued eyes on common rock. Betamax was technically superior product to VHS so why is it that Betamax died a quick death and VHS was around for decades? Superior marketting. More recently HD DVD died an untimely death vs Blueray. Do you know why Blueray won? Because Sony gave away a free blueray player with every PS3. They took a loss on the early units to make their technology the standard. It wasn't because Blueray was "the best", it was because a large segment of people already owned them via PS3. They made it more expensive for people to switch to HD DVD.

For the love of god, do not believe everything marketting departments try to sell you. Do not buy a reverse mortgage, you can live without the latest electronic gadget and sports leagues will not collapse if the players that the leagues spend millions of dollars marketing don't exist. I reiterate that the only reason you think the NHL can't exist without Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin is because of all the time and money they've invested in projecting that image. It is in their interests to do so when those players are in the league. If those players weren't in the league those millions of marketing dollars would go somewhere else.
- Flyers_01

Well maybe the NHL should stop spending millions of dollars marketing the players they do. Maybe they don't realize what a mistake they're making. Here's the point you're missing. Nobody has said that the NHL can't exist without Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin. But go ahead if you could, and ask the head honchos in Pittsburgh what Sidney Crosby has done for their franchise. I guess any player could've done the same as long as the marketing was there. You act like the players have nothing to do with it. It's just that the League has spent a lot of money to do so. Well why have they? Common sense tells you why.

No idea. But there would be someone. I guarantee it. Whoever is the best in the league. And there will always be someone that's best in the league.
- prock

So terribly wrong. The NHL is blessed to have their 2 biggest and brightest stars be so media friendly and marketable.

You really are missing the point. Once upon a time pet rocks were marketed as the "big thing" by a marketing company. Were the rocks special? Were they made of some special rock? Were they Superman's weakness? No. Common rock with eyes glued on them but the marketers told you they were special and consumers believed they were special so the consumers threw bushels of money at the people who glued eyes on common rock. Betamax was technically superior product to VHS so why is it that Betamax died a quick death and VHS was around for decades? Superior marketting. More recently HD DVD died an untimely death vs Blueray. Do you know why Blueray won? Because Sony gave away a free blueray player with every PS3. They took a loss on the early units to make their technology the standard. It wasn't because Blueray was "the best", it was because a large segment of people already owned them via PS3. They made it more expensive for people to switch to HD DVD.

For the love of god, do not believe everything marketting departments try to sell you. Do not buy a reverse mortgage, you can live without the latest electronic gadget and sports leagues will not collapse if the players that the leagues spend millions of dollars marketing don't exist. I reiterate that the only reason you think the NHL can't exist without Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin is because of all the time and money they've invested in projecting that image. It is in their interests to do so when those players are in the league. If those players weren't in the league those millions of marketing dollars would go somewhere else.
- Flyers_01

You just compared Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin to pet rocks!

I never once said the NHL couldn't exist without them. I said they are the reason the NHL is so successful off the ice.

The marketing of those players by the NHL has nothing to do with what I think of the league. I'm a fan of the NHL, that will never change, because it's the best league in the world. I followed Sidney Crosby all throughout his Major Midget, Shattuck and QMJHL days. I followed Malkin and Ovechkin as much as humanly possible in North America before they were drafted. The NHL's marketing of those players has had no affect on me.

The NHL would still exist without those players, but they wouldn't be the $3.3B enterprise that they are today without those players. If you also want to believe they would have marketed someone else then name who? Who would have generated more revenue and fans than those three players?

No one flocks to the arena when Bobby Ryan or Jack Johnson come to town. No one flocks to the rink when Cam Barker and Andrew Laad come to town. So tell me, please, who would it be?

The point is, you say it's Bettman's system, what THEY fought for, and then point to the very part of the CBA that's there for the PA as the culprit. The cap is what is stopped the NHL from absolutely hemorrhaging. The floor is what you're pointing to as killing teams. The cap is there for the owners. The floor for the PA.
- prock

Caps and floors go together. Some leagues set the floor as a % of the cap which means it does not rise as much in absolute dollars. Would have given more flexibility to bottom level teams. Luxury tax would also be better. This system does not work with this much economic disparity between teams. It is Gary's system.

My bedroom. Love me my Gary

- Cheeseballin

Its love? I figured just lust. Good for you

Well maybe the NHL should stop spending millions of dollars marketing the players they do. Maybe they don't realize what a mistake they're making. Here's the point you're missing. Nobody has said that the NHL can't exist without Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin. But go ahead if you could, and ask the head honchos in Pittsburgh what Sidney Crosby has done for their franchise. I guess any player could've done the same as long as the marketing was there. You act like the players have nothing to do with it. It's just that the League has spent a lot of money to do so. Well why have they? Common sense tells you why.
- MJL

Why is Cindy in the NHL?

It is because of what the NHL offers, because the OWNERS pay. You can argue that ultimately the fans pay, which is, of course, true.

Then you would be ignoring a large number of teams losing money. You could argue that also... but the PA isn't arguing it, so do you know more than the PA?

I explained that and while i said they, as a collective are experts, nowhere did i say they were infallible. What I did say is that if the owners had tried to go 50/50 in 2005 the players would have sat out a second year. Do you disagree with that statement?
- Flyers_01

Who knows what would've happened. The bottom line is that if the Owner's were such experts, we wouldn't be back in a lockout. Were back in a lockout because the Owner's plan was flawed. And there's a good chance the current plan the owner's are currently pushing, will end in a lockout when the next deal expires.

Price is an elite goaltender. He's been the only bright spot on a rotten Canadiens team since he got there. I would have lost credibility if I had of mentioned Fleury.
- trolleytracks

No, Fleury is not elite, but neither is Price. He certainly should be mentioned in the company of the players you put him in with in terms of marketing the game.

I don't really care about this argument but am mostly picking it because I wanted to talk about something besides the lockout.