for sure they would.

but, the original argument, was that if they all disappeared and were replaced by soup cans, we'd all be on here discussing soup cans. if the entire PA was given the boot, and the mike zigomanis's of the world became the nhl's elite level talent.. alot of people aren't going to be watching the nhl's product anymore.

all of those names listed have drawing power. even with a lockout now, you don't see the doors being ripped off of the ahl product, as the next best thing.
- joel878

I think after a while I'd be cheering for whomever was wearing the Habs logo.
I don't care if nobody on the team wins the Hart, or whatever, I want Stanley.

Well, Doan and Alfredsson aren't close to the best in the NHL. But if Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin all suffered career ending injuries before they got to the NHL, they'd make just as much money marketing Stamkos and Giroux. Absolutely they would.

Crosby has been injured for the better part of two seasons, and ovechkin hasn't really been all that great for the same time period, and it hasn't made a lick of a difference.
- prock

But they won't make as much money marketing Stamkos and Giroux, as they would marketing Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux. And the NHL would be missing the star and drawing power of those players. You vastly underrating what those players do for the League. Especially Crosby. How do you know it hasn't made a lock of difference/ How do you know if Crosby was playing it wouldn't have increased attendance when the Pens are on the road. And increased record revenues even furhter?

*eats popcorn at the star players replacement argument*

I have no idea what they are arguing over but it's quite entertaining. $10 somebody took someone's point and got lost in it and they've ventured so far away that there's a portrait of UG in the room they've ended up in.
- Boosinicka

Careful with your choice of words, saying with all due respect doesn't change anything.
So Yakupov, Eberle, Seguin, Hall cannot take over that mantle?
- braidan

I highly doubt that, since 2005, anyone has exceed Crosby or Ovechkin jersey sales.

Can Yak, Ebs, Seguin or Hall take over as Crosby or Ovechkin? Sure, why not, but they haven't. When people show up consistantly to NHL arenas around North America to see those 4 guys play, and when those jerseys fly off the shelves, and when t-shirts with their names on the backs are sold in other cities than their NHL teams', and when they win Hart's, Art Ross', Stanley Cups, Rocket Richards, and when they are expected to be 100 point players every season before the first regular season game is played, then you can get back to me on who has done more for the revenue part of the game.

That's exactly the point. You're not watching the NHL to watch Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, specifically. You're watching because they're the best in the world. But, there will always be someone there, that is the best in the world. If Crosby and Ovechkin never came along, I don't think it would have changed anything over the past 10 years. We'd just be talking about Giroux and Stamkos instead.
- prock

*eats popcorn at the star players replacement argument*

I have no idea what they are arguing over but it's quite entertaining. $10 somebody took someone's point and got lost in it and they've ventured so far away that there's a portrait of UG in the room they've ended up in.
- Boosinicka

You win $10. The original point was that Ovie and Sid make more money for the league than any other players. That has since evolved into Toews and Kane have hotter jerseys on nhl.com right now and the NHL would collapse if Sid and Ovie retired, and the league would make just as much money with Tavares and the Islanders stick boy as the face of the league.

MJL live in resignation for the NHLPA. Everything is going to be alright MJL. You gotta stop masterbate to your Sidney Crosby poster and start sleeping with your wife. I remember you saying in previous thread you ain't got lucky for little too long. Hopefully you score for the players tonight.

But they won't make as much money marketing Stamkos and Giroux, as they would marketing Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux. And the NHL would be missing the star and drawing power of those players. You vastly underrating what those players do for the League. Especially Crosby. How do you know it hasn't made a lock of difference/ How do you know if Crosby was playing it wouldn't have increased attendance when the Pens are on the road. And increased record revenues even furhter?
- MJL

Look at the draws on the road. They haven't followed Crosby and Ovechkin at all. The top draws are almost without exception the Stanley cup champs from the year before.

I think after a while I'd be cheering for whomever was wearing the Habs logo.
I don't care if nobody on the team wins the Hart, or whatever, I want Stanley.
- braidan

and that's the point i was trying to make, it's a matter of perspective.

i for one, probably wouldn't be watching the nhl again. i want to watch the best players on earth compete. to me, stanley is losing some merit when guys who might be ahl lifers are considered champions in its eyes.

it's all speculation. i would think if the pa were to disappear, and ahlers brought in to be the feature of the nhl.. there's someone out there with a stupid amount of money who would be investing in a product that would compete with the nhl. at the very least, there's a lot other leagues on planet earth who would immediately become more entertaining to watch than they were before.

I highly doubt that, since 2005, anyone has exceed Crosby or Ovechkin jersey sales.

Can Yak, Ebs, Seguin or Hall take over as Crosby or Ovechkin? Sure, why not, but they haven't. When people show up consistantly to NHL arenas around North America to see those 4 guys play, and when those jerseys fly off the shelves, and when t-shirts with their names on the backs are sold in other cities than their NHL teams', and when they win Hart's, Art Ross', Stanley Cups, Rocket Richards, and when they are expected to be 100 point players every season before the first regular season game is played, then you can get back to me on who has done more for the revenue part of the game.
- trolleytracks

I can see this is getting very circular, so I will end it here.
All I can say is that I have been a Habs fan for a VERY long time, back to when it was a given that they would be first in the Adams every year or battling for top spot.
Have I stopped watching since they became a shadow of their former selves? no.

That's all I'm saying.

But they won't make as much money marketing Stamkos and Giroux, as they would marketing Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, and Giroux. And the NHL would be missing the star and drawing power of those players. You vastly underrating what those players do for the League. Especially Crosby. How do you know it hasn't made a lock of difference/ How do you know if Crosby was playing it wouldn't have increased attendance when the Pens are on the road. And increased record revenues even furhter?
- MJL

I'm pretty sure we are the only ones talking about revenue generation. Every other comment is just rambling about there would be other players as the best in the league, but that has nothing to do with the original point of revenue generation.

Thanks for coming back MJL, it's good to have another person who sticks to the topic.

You win $10. The original point was that Ovie and Sid make more money for the league than any other players. That has since evolved into Toews and Kane have hotter jerseys on nhl.com right now and the NHL would collapse if Sid and Ovie retired, and the league would make just as much money with Tavares and the Islanders stick boy as the face of the league.
- trolleytracks

I agree RIGHT NOW ovie and sid make the most money for the league, BUT when they are gone somebody else will make the most money for the league.

I can see this is getting very circular, so I will end it here.
All I can say is that I have been a Habs fan for a VERY long time, back to when it was a given that they would be first in the Adams every year or battling for top spot.
Have I stopped watching since they became a shadow of their former selves? no.

That's all I'm saying.
- braidan

Of course you didn't, because you're a real fan. You also can't deny some players generate more revenue for the league than others.

I can see this is getting very circular, so I will end it here.
All I can say is that I have been a Habs fan for a VERY long time, back to when it was a given that they would be first in the Adams every year or battling for top spot.
Have I stopped watching since they became a shadow of their former selves? no.

That's all I'm saying.
- braidan

and i'm the same way as a leaf fan, but i still was pumped when the phaneuf trade happened, when reimer exploded, when they drafted reilly, etc.

would i be pretty amped about spending money on the product if dave steckel was the teams best player? food for thought i guess.

I agree RIGHT NOW ovie and sid make the most money for the league, BUT when they are gone somebody else will make the most money for the league.
- braidan

Yeah, they'll make the most, but it wouldn't be as much as these two. They're special players. If it was Stamkos and Giroux, who can't hit 100 points, the NHL wouldn't generate as much money. Crosby and Ovie bring fans, even if their band-wagon-jumping-morons, they still buy jerseys.

Of course you didn't, because you're a real fan. You also can't deny some players generate more revenue for the league than others.
- trolleytracks

I agree, but if someone wants to buy a jersey they will have a new player that they want.
Maybe Karlsson(sp?) becomes the new must have who knows, but if people want to buy a jersey they will find a name to put on the back.

This is getting ridiculous, pretty soon with all the quotes it's going to be one post per page. The one thing that bothers me the most here is that you equate the owners trying to negotiate a more equitable CBA as "punishment". The owners do want more from the NHL but to label it as "punishment" gives it a malicious intent. What exactly would they be punishing the players for? The players benefitted greatly from the last CBA, don't you agree? There is every likelyhood that the players would benefit greatly from this CBA as well. No "actual dollars" needed to be lost as recently as a month ago. The CBA is a reason why the minimum salary is upwards of $500k for 4th liners and I don't see anywhere that they were trying to lower the minimum salary?

No, the owners aren't trying to punish the players but I won't dispute that the players may have been sold that emotional trigger by Fehr.

As far as the make whole? The players lost upwards of 500 million (to date and untold millions in the future due to damage to the brand) to get that $300 million) when they could've lost ZERO on their contracts with the 1 year transition proposed previously. If you call having a net loss in 100's of millions "winning" you can get together with Charlie Sheen who also has a bizarre definition of the word.

If you think Fehr's history is irrelevent then we will have to agree to disagree. If a person shows that he will go to any length to put the people he is negotiating with at the worst disadvantage at the worst time possible to increase his leverage than negotiating in good faith and was successful, why wouldn't he do it again. What is his deterrent?
- Flyers_01

Obviously by some of the League's tactics, there is certainly malicious intent. Why do you think they want Fehr out of the room? Because they want a fair deal for all sides?
You overlook that if the players took the deal you think they should have, they would've have gotten far less on Make Whole. Honest question. Do you really think that the Fehr and the players don't realize what you're saying? So maybe you're overlooking the long term ramifications, and only focusing on one year. And to clarify, there hasn't been a single proposal offered by the Owners that would have seen the players lose zero on their contracts. Including the current offer. And the League has lost far more then the players have. And the League is also going to lose untold millions in the future due to damage to the brand. But again, you only look at one side, and ignore the other.
Fehr's history is that he is a strong negotiator who effectively protects his clients rights. That's why the NHL has a big problem with him. They'd rather have a pushover. And why they want him out of the room.

Look at the draws on the road. They haven't followed Crosby and Ovechkin at all. The top draws are almost without exception the Stanley cup champs from the year before.
- prock

They don't have to be a top draw to be followed. Nobody said that they were the only draws.

I agree RIGHT NOW ovie and sid make the most money for the league, BUT when they are gone somebody else will make the most money for the league.
- braidan

They don't. If jersey sales are an indication, Giroux led the league.

And that doesn't surprise me at all. I see a pile of kids wearing Giroux jerseys. I'd say he's the biggest draw, and highest revenue generator in the NHL right now.

I don't refuse to answer how not having Ovechkin and Malkin in the NHL makes them a secondary hockey League in NA. I absolutely addressed that. You chose to ignore my thoughts on that. So I'll repeat it. I didn't state that it would be without those two players! LOL

Now your making my point. Doan and Alfreddsson are no where close to being as dynamic, exciting, and flamboyant on the ice as Malkin and Ovechkin are! What don't you get?
- MJL

Malkin's flamboyant? When did that happen? Ovechkin hasn't been dynamic since Boudreau and then Hunter got a hold of him (he wasn't even in the top 35 point scoring). Both Doan and Alfredsson have been marketed by their teams and both are great hockey players in their own rights.

It's like we're talking two different languages. You are still dancing around the issue. I keep thinking you must really regret the Malkin/Ovchekin response to keep dancing around it this furiously.

Players do make the NHL the best league in NA. The problem with your argument is that no matter which playeryou take out of the NHL, unless those players are playing in a competing league in NA, it doesn't matter.

Next man up, next marketing campaign up. The NHL has marketed players of less talent before and they will do so again. The circle of life.

You can't give me a single player or a single group of players leaving the NHL that will make it secondary to a league like the AHL because the NHL will still end up with the best players available. Good luck finding anyone to willingly play in the AHL rather than the NHL when given a choice.

They don't have to be a top draw to be followed. Nobody said that they were the only draws.
- MJL

Point is, the top draw is the top dog in the league at the time. It doesn't matter who it is. If it weren't Crosby and Ovechkin, it would be someone else. That's painfully obvious.

I agree RIGHT NOW ovie and sid make the most money for the league, BUT when they are gone somebody else will make the most money for the league.
- braidan

The most sure! But is it possible that somebody else would make less then they do?

I agree, but if someone wants to buy a jersey they will have a new player that they want.
Maybe Karlsson(sp?) becomes the new must have who knows, but if people want to buy a jersey they will find a name to put on the back.
- braidan

Crosby and Ovechkin sold jerseys and other products all over Canada and the US before they even played one regular season game. Karlsson didn't sell jersey's outside of Ottawa until he won the Norris. 87 and 8 continue to sell jersey's even when they don't win anything. If Karlsson never wins another trophy how many jersey's will he sell outside of Ottawa?

The most sure! But is it possible that somebody else would make less then they do?
- MJL

Nope. The next names will likely make even more.

Malkin's flamboyant? When did that happen? Ovechkin hasn't been dynamic since Boudreau and then Hunter got a hold of him (he wasn't even in the top 35 point scoring). Both Doan and Alfredsson have been marketed by their teams and both are great hockey players in their own rights.

It's like we're talking two different languages. You are still dancing around the issue. I keep thinking you must really regret the Malkin/Ovchekin response to keep dancing around it this furiously.

Players do make the NHL the best league in NA. The problem with your argument is that no matter which playeryou take out of the NHL, unless those players are playing in a competing league in NA, it doesn't matter.

Next man up, next marketing campaign up. The NHL has marketed players of less talent before and they will do so again. The circle of life.

You can't give me a single player or a single group of players leaving the NHL that will make it secondary to a league like the AHL because the NHL will still end up with the best players available. Good luck finding anyone to willingly play in the AHL rather than the NHL when given a choice.
- Flyers_01

I will repeat for the 3rd time. Since you practice selective reading. I have never stated, nor has it been my opinion, that losing any single player will make the League secondary to a league like the AHL. That is your statement. Not mine!

Honestly how hard is that to comprehend?