Tim Panaccio: Courts Will Force A Solution

Tim Panaccio: Courts Will Force A Solution
- tpanaccio

Wont force anything. The players are acting like babies. They could have had a virtually identical deal this summer but they are being led astray. Fehr is the sole reason for this lockout. The players are only trying to save face and its ridiculous.

Idiots.

Wont force anything. The players are acting like babies. They could have had a virtually identical deal this summer but they are being led astray. Fehr is the sole reason for this lockout. The players are only trying to save face and its ridiculous.

Idiots.
- Iggysbff

you really think Fehr is the 'sole' reason for this lockout?....so Bettman has had nothing to do with it either?....wish I was smoking what you were.

Wont force anything. The players are acting like babies. They could have had a virtually identical deal this summer but they are being led astray. Fehr is the sole reason for this lockout. The players are only trying to save face and its ridiculous.

Idiots.
- Iggysbff

You couldn't be more incorrect in stating that the players could've had a virtually identical deal in the Summer. Stating Fehr is the sole reason for the lockout is laughable.

Al's right, season is done and will extend into the "offseason", if not next year.

Fehr doesn't care about the sport and is out for one final "trophy". The players' blind support will only end up hurting them in the long run as the issues they are rumored to still be fighting over are not very meaningful to the majority of the union.

You couldn't be more incorrect in stating that the players could've had a virtually identical deal in the Summer. Stating Fehr is the sole reason for the lockout is laughable.
- MJL

We'll never know... the PA refused to come to the table.

The disclaimer was their intent all along. Everybody, who is not an idiot knows this.

Al's right, season is done and will extend into the "offseason", if not next year.

Fehr doesn't care about the sport and is out for one final "trophy". The players' blind support will only end up hurting them in the long run as the issues they are rumored to still be fighting over are not very meaningful to the majority of the union.
- flyguy12

I agree, Al Morganti has this pegged. Neither side hit the courts trying to actually force a deal, they hit the courts trying to win this thing once and for all. This has the potential to get ugly for a long time.

On the flip side, this has all kinds of potential to establish case law. That alone should be fascinating to watch. For the talk of "the owners could face treble damages," remember that the NFL was found to have violated antitrust law, and the USFL got treble damages; after factoring in postjudgment interest (courtesy of numerous appeals on both sides), the USFL got exactly $3.76 (in a check which was never cashed) and lawyers fees. In other words, the chances of the owners having to shell out billions of dollars is really small.

You couldn't be more incorrect in stating that the players could've had a virtually identical deal in the Summer. Stating Fehr is the sole reason for the lockout is laughable.
- MJL

Of course Fehr is the sole reason for this. He refused to negotiate and still refuses to negotiate.

Everone, you included, has said 50/50 is fair and they would end up there. So the only thing they really had to deal with is some contract issues. They could have had 50/50, some make whole money and very similar contract settlement back prior to cancelling ANY games or any salary (at 700 million and counting). The PA is the only reason we are where we are.

Of course Fehr is the sole reason for this. He refused to negotiate and still refuses to negotiate.

Everone, you included, has said 50/50 is fair and they would end up there. So the only thing they really had to deal with is some contract issues. They could have had 50/50, some make whole money and very similar contract settlement back prior to cancelling ANY games or any salary (at 700 million and counting). The PA is the only reason we are where we are.
- Iggysbff

The NHL was not going to give the NHLPA make Whole money before the Season was supposed to start. You completely ignore the facts. And you completely ignore the role that Bob Batterman has had in this. The lockout was the NHL's strategy. Unless the PA completely caved before the Season started there was always going to be a lockout. The NHL in it's own Complaint they filed the other day stated that the NHLPA has made 7 offers. They have been negotiating. Just because you or the NHL doesn't like how they've been negotiating. Doesn't mean they haven't.

I agree, I think this is the playbook to a T, and it will move towards a resolution, although I think we're looking at a couple more weeks of nonsense, and not getting going until mid-Jan (like in 95). I also agree on Bettman. His view that the approach every time is to seek to destroy the union and its leader is bad for business, and leads him to not see the forest for the trees. Fehr is not perfect, not saying he is, but he's been more of the pro here, keeping his guys together and trying to get the best deal in what is a give-back negotiation for them. This is Gary's lockout, he owns it.

If Bettman loses another season, he cannot possibly stay on (although my sense is he might go either way). Bettman has been at the helm for now 3 lockouts in 20 years; this is his favorite ploy, clearly, and to lose a second full season would be nothing but an epic fail on his part. I actually think he knows that and will take the best deal left on the table by early Jan...and that deal will be a win for the owners even if it won't solve long term the problem of franchises in cities that are hard pressed to succeed financially even in the best of circumstances.

I'm just looking forward to finally seeing the headline, "Lockout is over, hockey starts play on ???" and moving on from this idiocy.

Tim Panaccio: Courts Will Force A Solution
- tpanaccio

I love this game but I honestly hope they do not have a season. It is a complete sham.

I believe no matter what happens, Fehr will be gone soon after a deal is complete. I never believed he had long term plans for the NHL. I can only hope that Bettman will be gone too.

I read how this is all Fehr's fault. Well for me, three strikes and your out Gary.

hope shilling for the nhlpa at least pays well.

I love this game but I honestly hope they do not have a season. It is a complete sham.

I believe no matter what happens, Fehr will be gone soon after a deal is complete. I never believed he had long term plans for the NHL. I can only hope that Bettman will be gone too.

I read how this is all Fehr's fault. Well for me, three strikes and your out Gary.
- rayc16

Absolutely Gary should be out. He has done a piss poor job with the league. The game has grown but he has managed to have 3 lockouts, maybe 2 full season cancellations.

Absolutely Gary should be out. He has done a piss poor job with the league. The game has grown but he has managed to have 3 lockouts, maybe 2 full season cancellations.
- Just5

agreed. I also agree with the poster above, I love the game but dont care if they are out for two years. I dont feel sorry for them at all. They have a joint responsibility not just to us fans, but to the thousands of people who depend on them to earn their livlihood and those people make 25,35,50K a year NOT millions.

Both sides have failed us and them miserably and deserve all the pain they get.

The NHL was not going to give the NHLPA make Whole money before the Season was supposed to start.
- MJL

Even if the PA got ZERO make whole, they could have negotiated a deal no worse than now.

All they had to do was tweak the NHL'ers October offer on contract issues. They don't get make whole, but they earn easily more than double that in salary.

They lost already, and the beauty of it is that they did it to themselves.

Even if the PA got ZERO make whole, they could have negotiated a deal no worse than now.

All they had to do was tweak the NHL'ers October offer on contract issues. They don't get make whole, but they earn easily more than double that in salary.

They lost already, and the beauty of it is that they did it to themselves.
- Aetherial[/quote

Yep, agreed.

The NHL was not going to give the NHLPA make Whole money before the Season was supposed to start. You completely ignore the facts. And you completely ignore the role that Bob Batterman has had in this. The lockout was the NHL's strategy. Unless the PA completely caved before the Season started there was always going to be a lockout. The NHL in it's own Complaint they filed the other day stated that the NHLPA has made 7 offers. They have been negotiating. Just because you or the NHL doesn't like how they've been negotiating. Doesn't mean they haven't.
- MJL

The league had NO CHOICE but to lock them out. To keep going without a CBA would be ludacris for the league. The PA knew full well that there would be a lockout if there was no deal. They whine and female dog but they went forward knowing full well they were forcing the league into a lockout.

You say they had no make whole money back then, thats because they didnt even TRY! If they had gotten to the table and bargained they would have ended up very close to where they are no with no games and salary lost.

You seem to completly ignore the facts and twist others!

The league had NO CHOICE but to lock them out. To keep going without a CBA would be ludacris for the league. The PA knew full well that there would be a lockout if there was no deal. They whine and female dog but they went forward knowing full well they were forcing the league into a lockout.

You say they had no make whole money back then, thats because they didnt even TRY! If they had gotten to the table and bargained they would have ended up very close to where they are no with no games and salary lost.

You seem to completly ignore the facts and twist others!
- Iggysbff

I agree totally that the League would've been making a huge mistake to agree to play the Season from a negotiation standpoint. And I've said that many times previously.

The NHLPA did not force the League into a lockout. A lockout was the NHL's strategy from day 1. And if you think that if the NHLPA tried to get Make Whole money back in October, that the NHL would've agreed to that. Then you're delusional and are simply not paying attention.
The NHL would've accpeted 50/50 right out of the gate, which would've meant player contracts would not be honored. There's no agreement there at that point.

I don't need to ignore any facts simply because you didn't offer any. You just gave a delusional and false account of what's been going on.

I agree totally that the League would've been making a huge mistake to agree to play the Season from a negotiation standpoint. And I've said that many times previously.

The NHLPA did not force the League into a lockout. A lockout was the NHL's strategy from day 1. And if you think that if the NHLPA tried to get Make Whole money back in October, that the NHL would've agreed to that. Then you're delusional and are simply not paying attention.
The NHL would've accpeted 50/50 right out of the gate, which would've meant player contracts would not be honored. There's no agreement there at that point.

I don't need to ignore any facts simply because you didn't offer any. You just gave a delusional and false account of what's been going on.
- MJL

Thats ALL you have been doing all along!

I think that even if a deal is reached to save the season - and I've given up trying to make predictions on this, because I never even thought there would be a lockout to begin with and they've kept disappointing me from day one - Bettman is done. However, if he reaches a deal I see him quietly resigning and NOT being fired by the owners. I mean, he's been doing this for 20 years and I've read some reports saying it's really starting to take a toll on him. When the NHL returns, regardless of how much owner support he has, he'll have likely won the last great victory over the players, with a long CBA; by the time it ends he'll be pushing 70. On the other hand, he has to know that the odds are against the league for recovering the way they did after 2004 (or at least this is what I hope, and there is some evidence to support this). I think he's more despised now by fans and the media than he ever has been which is saying something.

Please don't confuse this with real meaningful optimism. Although I certainly wouldn't miss the guy, he'll almost certainly be replaced with Daly who is the exact same, but a bit more media friendly. And of course no commissioner could ever change the mentality of owners that leads to such lockouts, and who ultimately control the commissioner. This is just the only "prediction" I'm willing to make right now and I'm probably wrong

The NHL would've accpeted 50/50 right out of the gate, which would've meant player contracts would not be honored. There's no agreement there at that point.
- MJL

Exactly, because there's no reason the players shouldn't get every penny their contract says they're suppo- ....... er, wait ... that's exactly what happened in 5 of the last 7 years, when the players had to pay into escrow and didn't get all of it back. Since 2005, they've never been guaranteed to get every penny they were contracted to receive.

Exactly, because there's no reason the players shouldn't get every penny their contract says they're suppo- ....... er, wait ... that's exactly what happened in 5 of the last 7 years, when the players had to pay into escrow and didn't get all of it back. Since 2005, they've never been guaranteed to get every penny they were contracted to receive.
- Irish Blues

C'mon IB. You know there is a big difference between a rollback and not honoring contracts, and escrow. With escrow, they could also get more then they were contracted to receive. A rollback is a guaranteed cut across the board.

C'mon IB. You know there is a big difference between a rollback and not honoring contracts, and escrow. With escrow, they could also get more then they were contracted to receive. A rollback is a guaranteed cut across the board.
- MJL

Correct, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. However, the NHL's current position (and its position for a while now) isn't, "we want you guys to take a rollback." When the players have said "we want our contracts honored" throughout this round of negotiations, they've consistently meant, "we want to actually receive every dollar we've been contracted to receive, and not have to pay extra via escrow in the process" - which is how the entire "make whole" thing got started.

Correct, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. However, the NHL's current position (and its position for a while now) isn't, "we want you guys to take a rollback." When the players have said "we want our contracts honored" throughout this round of negotiations, they've consistently meant, "we want to actually receive every dollar we've been contracted to receive, and not have to pay extra via escrow in the process" - which is how the entire "make whole" thing got started.
- Irish Blues

The players want a Cap on escrow. Not exactly sure how that would figure in. But that's what they've asked for in the past.