This is the third time I have posted this regarding good faith bargaining, and if this were presented to a judge then he would rule that NEITHER side has bargained in good faith.

Definition of good faith bargaining from uslegal.com

Good-faith bargaining generally refers to the duty of the parties to meet and negotiate at reasonable times with willingness to reach agreement on matters within the scope of representation; however, neither party is required to make a concession or agree to any proposal.

Good faith bargaining requires employers and unions involved in collective bargaining to:
■ use their best endeavours to agree to an effective bargaining process
■ meet and consider and respond to proposals made by each other
■ respect the role of the other's representative by not seeking to bargain directly with those for whom the representative acts
■ not do anything to undermine the bargaining process or the authority of the other's representative.
- uf1910

I agree, the PA has not bargained in good faith.

- Feeling_Glucky

The constant PR crap and trying to win in the public perception is what really pissed me off from the beginning. Neither side could truly win in that regard unless they played hockey.
- uf1910

Bang on.

Nope. The owners were always going to hold ouot until January. It was their plan all along. they are QUOTED as saying it. This was the expectation. The players would never have seen the money. Just google the expecations of how long the lock out would last by organizations.

Tiger Blood.
- Beatle_john

Dumbest post of the day so far. You beat MJL! You should be proud.

Why? Just to see how stupid he can be?
- Cptmjl

So we get a cancelled season.

Some stats for NHLPA members to think about if season is cancelled:

46.7% of all retired NHL players as of 2008-2009, played in 80 games or less in their careers.

The last lockout had about 240 NHL players who played in 2003-04 and didn't return after the league came back.

Less than 10% of NHL players currently have a contract over 5 years in term.
The median for seasons played by an NHL player is 4 seasons.

http://hockeyhurts.com/gu...g-nhlpa-over-fiscal-cliff
- Gunner Staal

Quit riddling the NHLPA with facts, they don't want to hear it.

The NHLPA's approach early in the Negotiations, was that they wanted to negotiate the issues separately, then tie them together later on. Why I don't know but that was their approach. That frustrated the NHL, and they wanted to dictate how the negotiations went. So the NHLPA has made plenty of proposals on the issues. And really the only full offer that really matters is the one agreed to in the end. Hopefully that is coming soon.
- MJL

It frustrated the NHL for good reason. You cannot possibly get an idea of the whole story if you negotiate every issue separately. Not to mention that there is no "give in one area for a trade off in another area".

The PA did this simply to drag it out. Waiting until the season cancellation is imminent and threatening the DOI was the PA's end game all along. There is no question of this. This was the plan that Fehr sold to the players last year. This is the reason he was hired.

The problem is, it cost the players more than if they worked off the October offer.

It frustrated the NHL for good reason. You cannot possibly get an idea of the whole story if you negotiate every issue separately. Not to mention that there is no "give in one area for a trade off in another area".

The PA did this simply to drag it out. Waiting until the season cancellation is imminent and threatening the DOI was the PA's end game all along. There is no question of this. This was the plan that Fehr sold to the players last year. This is the reason he was hired.

The problem is, it cost the players more than if they worked off the October offer.
- Aetherial

I've got to say, you are easily the worst poster that ever spoke on this site. You're just a weiner.

I've got to say, you are easily the worst poster that ever spoke on this site. You're just a weiner.
- prock

some people are just richardsuckers by nature. almost born with those genetics. even those people seem to contribute more to the world than you and your little over done purse/lap dog schtick.. (which you're to (frank)ing sheltered to realize just lays stakes to the idea that you enjoy men on your lap, and have a purse)

seriously, do you even work? or is the full time job sitting on hockeybuzz trying to pump yourself up at the expense of random posters who couldn't hand you an ounce of validation in the real world if you blew em for it?

you're a d-bag, and my biggest fan. you carry a sharpie in that purse so i can hand you an autograph? from what i've seen of you.. i'm thinking you'd rather hand me your lipstick so i can sign your tits.

It frustrated the NHL for good reason. You cannot possibly get an idea of the whole story if you negotiate every issue separately. Not to mention that there is no "give in one area for a trade off in another area".

The PA did this simply to drag it out. Waiting until the season cancellation is imminent and threatening the DOI was the PA's end game all along. There is no question of this. This was the plan that Fehr sold to the players last year. This is the reason he was hired.

The problem is, it cost the players more than if they worked off the October offer.
- Aetherial

Fehr should be commended for getting the best possible deal for the players when this thing is eventually over with. If the players want to sacrifice now for the betterment of future players. They should be commended. Even though it's hurt 90 percent of them

some people are just richardsuckers by nature. almost born with those genetics. even those people seem to contribute more to the world than you and your little over done purse/lap dog schtick.. (which you're to (frank)ing sheltered to realize just lays stakes to the idea that you enjoy men on your lap, and have a purse)

seriously, do you even work? or is the full time job sitting on hockeybuzz trying to pump yourself up at the expense of random posters who couldn't hand you an ounce of validation in the real world if you blew em for it?

you're a d-bag, and my biggest fan. you carry a sharpie in that purse so i can hand you an autograph? from what i've seen of you.. i'm thinking you'd rather hand me your lipstick so i can sign your tits.
- Aetherial

It frustrated the NHL for good reason. You cannot possibly get an idea of the whole story if you negotiate every issue separately. Not to mention that there is no "give in one area for a trade off in another area".

The PA did this simply to drag it out. Waiting until the season cancellation is imminent and threatening the DOI was the PA's end game all along. There is no question of this. This was the plan that Fehr sold to the players last year. This is the reason he was hired.

The problem is, it cost the players more than if they worked off the October offer.
- Aetherial

That is the shocking part, they are out over a half billion in salary by doing this. When it comes down to it, its all about getting money for the players, the other stuff if just noise and how you spread the 50% to the players.

Fehr failed miserably in trying to get the most money for the players. Would have been way better off just playing the whole year at 50% without the $300M make whole.

That is the shocking part, they are out over a half billion in salary by doing this. When it comes down to it, its all about getting money for the players, the other stuff if just noise and how you spread the 50% to the players.

Fehr failed miserably in trying to get the most money for the players. Would have been way better off just playing the whole year at 50% without the $300M make whole.
- BigStew

And that's just if they sign this one. It could still climb from here.

Fehr should be commended for getting the best possible deal for the players when this thing is eventually over with. If the players want to sacrifice now for the betterment of future players. They should be commended. Even though it's hurt 90 percent of them
- Just5

That's the thing, its not going to help future players. League revenues will be hurt for years to come, that only takes away more from future players.

The NHLPA should be pissed IMO.

Fehr should be commended for getting the best possible deal for the players when this thing is eventually over with. If the players want to sacrifice now for the betterment of future players. They should be commended. Even though it's hurt 90 percent of them
- Just5

They could have negotiated this in October and saved themselves a few hundred million.

I also don't think this is about future players. There is NO CONCERN whatsoever among the PA for future players. This is about their plan all along to get to where we are now because Fehr sold them on the idea that this was the way to get the best deal.

Yeah, sure it is, but is a pyrrhic victory to say the least.

some people are just richardsuckers by nature. almost born with those genetics. even those people seem to contribute more to the world than you and your little over done purse/lap dog schtick.. (which you're to (frank)ing sheltered to realize just lays stakes to the idea that you enjoy men on your lap, and have a purse)

seriously, do you even work? or is the full time job sitting on hockeybuzz trying to pump yourself up at the expense of random posters who couldn't hand you an ounce of validation in the real world if you blew em for it?

you're a d-bag, and my biggest fan. you carry a sharpie in that purse so i can hand you an autograph? from what i've seen of you.. i'm thinking you'd rather hand me your lipstick so i can sign your tits.
- Aetherial

Pipe down, boss. Im only on level 2. I dont fight you until the last level. Deflex, you'll hurt yourself.

- prock

It was one of his finest moments.

Atomic Wedgie copied others though that were at least as good... something about being a single mom or some crap like that...

Pipe down, boss. Im only on level 2. I dont fight you until the last level. Deflex, you'll hurt yourself.
- prock

ROFL!

neither side is doing anything to help the game at this point, they are all thinking about the bottom line for their wallets, the league will be a while recovering from this I think

ROFL!
- Aetherial

I'm out bud, have a good night.

neither side is doing anything to help the game at this point, they are all thinking about the bottom line for their wallets, the league will be a while recovering from this I think
- Rayven

Me thinks you're right.

NHLPA counter proposal will include

-Longer contract terms (not a huge issue but Fuhr will try)
-Shorter CBA (Same here)
-Higher contract variance (The will ask at least 15%)

and the biggest point

-Higher salary cap for next year so next summer UFA don't get screwed with the cap going down 10M as proposed by the league

It was one of his finest moments.

Atomic Wedgie copied others though that were at least as good... something about being a single mom or some crap like that...
- Aetherial

That was for Joel"PurseDog"878?

NHLPA counter proposal will include

-Longer contract terms (not a huge issue but Fuhr will try)
-Shorter CBA (Same here)
-Higher contract variance (The will try to get at least 15%)

and the biggest point

-Higher salary cap for next year so next summer UFA don't get screwed with the cap going down 10M as proposed by the league
- Symba007

I think they're mostly worried about Escrow with the 60M reduced Cap. They would view it as almost a rollback.
At some point the NHLPA is going to have to accept at least some part of an Offer, on the contract issues. How many times can you expect to counter every issue? They have about 10 days. It took 14 days to get this new offer.

From Pierre LaBrun, ESPN


An NHL team source provided highlights from the latest offer the NHL gave to the union on Thursday:

• Ten-Year Agreement (through 2021/22 season); Parties have mutual opt-out right
after 8 years.

• 50-50 Revenue Split between Clubs and Players with current HRR Accounting.

• $300 million in “Make-Whole” payments (outside the system) to compensate Players
for the reduced value of Player contracts in the early years of the new CBA.

• No contractual “roll backs” of Player Salaries.

• Clubs can operate with an effective Upper Limit of $70.2 million in 2012/13; must
come into compliance with $60 million Upper Limit for the start of the 2013/14
season.

• Each Club will be entitled to execute up to one “Compliance Buy-Out” prior to the
2013/14 season pursuant to which payments made to the Player will not be charged
against the team’s Cap, but will be charged against the Players’ Share.

• Establishment of a Defined Benefit Pension Plan that will provide maximum
permissible benefits to Players upon retirement. The Plan will be funded with
contributions out of Players’ Share and $50 million of the “Make-Whole” payment
amount of $300 million will be allocated and set aside to fund potential underfunding
liabilities of the Plan at end of CBA.

• Rules for Entry Level System, Salary Arbitration and Group 3 Unrestricted Free
Agency will remain unchanged.

• Maximum contract length of 6 years subject to a Club’s ability to re-sign its own
Player for a term of up to 7 years (provided the Player played his last full season
with the re-signing Club). In addition, year-to-year Salary variability will be limited
(up or down) to no more than 10% of the value of the first year of a multi-year SPC.

• Money paid (above a defined threshold) to Players on NHL SPCs in another
professional league (e.g., the AHL or a European league) will be charged against the
NHL team’s Cap, but not against the Players’ Share.

• “Cap Advantage Recapture” formula applicable to existing long-term contracts (in
excess of 6 years) for years in which Player is retired or fails/refuses to perform
under his NHL SPC.

• Ability for Clubs to retain/allocate Salary and Cap Charges in the context of Player
Trades within specified parameters.

• More robust League-wide Revenue Sharing Program (increased pool from
approximately $150 million to $200 million) with creation of Industry Growth Fund to
improve the long-term revenue generating potential of the League and low-grossing
Clubs. Formation of active Revenue Sharing Oversight Committee on which NHLPA
will participate.

• New Player Discipline procedures and protocol incorporating Player appeal rights to
a neutral third-party arbitrator for both on-ice and off-ice discipline.

• Flexibility-related adjustments to Payroll Range System, including (in addition to
Salary/Cap Charge allocation in Player trades):

1. Lower Limit obligation without performance bonuses;
2. Elimination of Re-Entry Waivers;
3. Creation of Salary Cap exceptions for emergency roster situations/goaltender
injuries;
4. Waiver exemptions for mid-season signings of Club’s own European Players;
5. Availability of Performance Bonus Cushion in every year of the CBA;
6. Creation of “interview period” for Unrestricted Free Agents.


• Various Player contract enhancements and protections, including:
1. Early activation of “No Move/No Trade” clauses in contract extensions;
2. Additional restrictions on Club “buy-out” rights of Player contracts;
3. Modified Waiver obligations for Clubs / enhanced Waiver opportunities for
Players;
4. Standardization of reimbursements and benefits related to Player
assignments (trades, loans, recalls, etc.);
5. Continued increases in League Minimum Salary and Per Diem;
6. Playoff Pool increased from $6.5 million to $13 million in Year 1; additional
regular increases over the balance of the CBA term;
7. All minor league salary paid in USD;
8. Liberalized “Cap treatment” standards for Club initiatives benefitting Players,
such as “parent-son” road trips; milestone awards/gifts; parental travel and
lodging for attendance at EL Player games, Club provision of various types of
“professional development”-type services for Players, etc.


• Player “Working Condition” improvements, including:
1. Ice-time restrictions and mandatory “days off” requirements during Training
Camp;
2. Club practice schedule and “days off” requirements during the Regular
Season;
3. Extended “Christmas Break” (i.e., December 24-26 “days off” for all
purposes);
4. Mandatory facility standards for Visiting Teams relating to training/medical
supplies, workout equipment and dressing room standards/supplies;
5. Implementation of “best practices” and continued League initiatives to ensure
optimal ice conditions;
6. Tighter restrictions/regulation of Club off-season conditioning requirements
and Club Conditioning Camp;
7. Establishment of annual Orientation and Development Program for
Rookies/First Year Players.


• New CBA Article devoted exclusively to Player Health and Safety measures and
covering such matters as:
1. The establishment of a Joint NHL/NHLPA Health and Safety Committee with
equal representation from the NHL and the NHLPA;
2. The establishment of “Standard of Care” and “Professional Duty” obligations
owing from team health care professionals to Players;
3. The establishment of minimum requirements for “health management” staffing
and resources;
4. The establishment of standards for the creation, updating and maintenance of
Electronic Medical Records for Players;
5. Improvements to Second Medical Opinion procedures and protocol and
Fitness to Play determinations;
6. Implementation of additional steps and safeguards to monitor the use (and
possible misuse) of prescription medication by Players.
7. Increased flexibility for Players for rehabilitation of injuries during the offseason.


• Elimination of NHLPA “Guarantee” of Escrow shortfall and increased NHLPA
discretion to determine in-season Escrow Rates.

• Completion of expert third-party review of SABH Program and commitment to make
recommended modifications and improvements, as appropriate.

• Improvements to existing Performance Enhancing Substances Program, including:
1. Expansion of Prohibited Substances List to include illegal stimulants;
2. The establishment of testing protocol for HGH;
3. Varied forms and times of testing throughout the year;
4. The establishment of protocol for “reasonable cause testing”;
5. Incorporation of agreed-upon appeal procedures from “positive” test results;
6. Commitment to work with the AHL and the PHPA to expand Program to cover
AHL Players.


• Joint (NHL/NHLPA) Committees:
1. Formation of new “Owner-Player Relations Committee,” with broad-based
participation from Owners and Players intended to foster and establish better
understanding and stronger working relationships.
2. Formation of new “Revenue Sharing Oversight Committee” to oversee the
operation of the Revenue Sharing System.
3. Formation of new “Joint Health and Safety Committee” to make
recommendations to the NHL and the NHLPA on Player Health and Safety
matters.
4. Formation of new “NHL/NHLPA Equipment Working Group” to study,
promulgate and enforce minimum standards for protective equipment utilized
by NHL Players.
5. Refined and enhanced role for “Player/Club Competition Committee” (CBA
Article 22) with greater consultation and interaction with the NHL General
Managers’ Committee.
6. The “NHL/NHLPA Joint Owner-Player Broadcasting/Marketing Committee”
(CBA Article 32) will be reconstituted to consult and establish policy on
League broadcasting and marketing matters, as well as other League
business functions and initiatives.
7. The NHL/NHLPA International Committee (CBA Article 24) will be charged
with jointly identifying, creating, exploiting and managing new international
business opportunities involving NHL Players, in which the NHL and NHLPA
will participate as 50-50 partners. The NHL/NHLPA International Committee
shall also have an advisory role in planning and executing NHL events
conducted outside of North America.


• Players provided access to NHL.com platform for their individual Player websites
and social media.

• Implementation of a weighted Draft Lottery in which all non-Playoff teams compete
for opportunity to choose first overall in the annual Draft.

• Exclusive negotiating rights window for European Draftees extended to one period
covering four years, instead of two periods covering two years each.

• Modification to “Four-Recall Rule” to remove limitation on “number of transactions”
following the Trade Deadline; replace with limitations on the total number of Recalls
on roster at any one time after the Trade Deadline.

• Updated and improved Grievance Arbitration process and procedure.

• Enhanced access to Game Tickets for Visiting Team Players and NHLPA.

• NHLPA representatives to be provided reasonable access to Club facilities and
Players at reasonable times.