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Forums :: Blog World :: Steven Hindle: The Subban Effect
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God_then_kovy
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 02.06.2008

Apr 5 @ 11:47 AM ET
You're neglecting zone starts, which really contribute to possession numbers and scoring.

Subban and Markov see > 51% OZs -- a nice balance of minutes, and honestly, if I'm Therrien, I'm giving them a higher amount. Emelin's right there at about 50%.

Gorges sees 45%, Diaz 44%. Those are the two that stand-out as statistically significant.

There's nothing about reliability here. Subban can eat up defensive zone minutes and play well in them, I don't doubt that. Great coaches know how to fix deployment, though. Therrien probably could even skew it a bit further, if you ask me.

Vigneault's been riding the Sedin twins into lofty minutes for the past five years, and really, it's just smart matching. If you want the Sedin twins to play a two-way, balanced game, you're not extrapolating proper output, and you're going to need a bunch of bottom-six plugs to pick up scoring slack in OZ TOI.

- Travis Yost

I agree with everything you said. The question was about Subban and the Norris...which i don't think he should win (also didn't think Karlsson should win it last year). Imo the best defenseman is not the top scorer. Chara should win it every year in my books but meh..
TommyDeVito
Ottawa Senators
Location: We're gonna skate to one song, and one song only.
Joined: 12.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 11:47 AM ET
Just think of the contract extension we need o offer Ryder, let alone Subban.
Then Again maybe Ryder's goals shouldn't be important since they are only PP goals with very little productivity ES>

- willey101


Why even offer Ryder an extension with so many prospects ready to fill that hole in scoring if he walks?
TommyDeVito
Ottawa Senators
Location: We're gonna skate to one song, and one song only.
Joined: 12.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 11:50 AM ET
I agree with everything you said. The question was about Subban and the Norris...which i don't think he should win (also didn't think Karlsson should win it last year). Imo the best defenseman is not the top scorer. Chara should win it every year in my books but meh..
- God_then_kovy


Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.
willey101
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Am an addict for Habs talk. i
Joined: 10.06.2005

Apr 5 @ 11:50 AM ET
Why even offer Ryder an extension with so many prospects ready to fill that hole in scoring if he walks?
- TommyDeVito


Because we have a ton of prospects but none are ready yet. Gallagher and Galchenyuk are there. We then have a ton of guys like Collberg, kristo, Hudon, Vail, but none of these kids have any pro experience.

Actually most will not in be eligible for the Hammer next year.

If Ryder is not retained then there is a crazy void in our forward unit with no relief on the horizon.
willey101
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Am an addict for Habs talk. i
Joined: 10.06.2005

Apr 5 @ 11:51 AM ET
Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.
- TommyDeVito


Chara was not the best Dman last year, i agree.. Overall D was Weber but he spends so much time keeping the puck out of the net that his point totals suffered. It's time to create the Orr trophy for Dman with the most points. Or at least best offensive Dman and best overall Dman
Steven Hindle
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Montreal, QC
Joined: 03.29.2010

Apr 5 @ 11:54 AM ET
Remember, I am by no means saying PK outright deserves the Norris here, only that his performance is getting there and between he and Markov, there's a Norris worthy defender between the two of them.

I agree that stats take the shine off of some of the accomplishments, but it's still all gravy as far as the Habs are concerned.

As with Karlsson, there's still plenty of development left to be had for Subban, but he can no longer be written off or ignored.

All in all, it's just another piece of the puzzle that has helped the team in its turnaround and if he can continue to improve, it's more a matter of when he'll be in the mix, not if.

Great comments and debate, by the way, keep it up!
willey101
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Am an addict for Habs talk. i
Joined: 10.06.2005

Apr 5 @ 11:55 AM ET
Remember, I am by no means saying PK outright deserves the Norris here, only that his performance is getting there and between he and Markov, there's a Norris worthy defender between the two of them.

I agree that stats take the shine off of some of the accomplishments, but it's still all gravy as far as the Habs are concerned.

As with Karlsson, there's still plenty of development left to be had for Subban, but he can no longer be written off or ignored.

All in all, it's just another piece of the puzzle that has helped the team in its turnaround and if he can continue to improve, it's more a matter of when he'll be in the mix, not if.

Great comments and debate, by the way, keep it up!

- hindlehabs


What???, PK won't win the Norris. We had your back man....traitor.
God_then_kovy
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 02.06.2008

Apr 5 @ 12:03 PM ET
Child, please. There were at least 4 defensemen better than Chara last year.
- TommyDeVito

Weber deserved it more than Karlsson last year because he's a more complete defenseman. This year i think guys like Suter and Chara who put fear into the opposition's hearts when playing in their own zone deserve it more than Subban. But the award is given to the best offensive defenseman before it's given to the best defensive defeseman which makes it worthless in my books. Understand my point, son?
Steven Hindle
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Montreal, QC
Joined: 03.29.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:04 PM ET
What???, PK won't win the Norris. We had your back man....traitor.
- willey101




He can. Plenty of time left for him to continue making his statement, just making sure my emphasis on his impact, regardless of Norris talk, is clear!

glove_was_stuck
Boston Bruins
Location: Yeah well that's like your opinion man, MA
Joined: 04.27.2011

Apr 5 @ 12:27 PM ET
Bruins fans might start with "Subban is a diver," but if Ray Bourque identified the potential in the Montreal blue-liner, well, that should be good enough for anyone.


Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!
muffin_man
Montreal Canadiens
Location: no problem, as s hole - Eric Engels, NY
Joined: 02.10.2007

Apr 5 @ 12:28 PM ET
He looks great out there, no question, but it hasn't been even CLOSE to top 3 in the league, especially when the vast majority of his points are on the man-advantage - he's only scored 10 even strength points through 31 games.

He's also 4th on his own team in TOI among defensemen, not exactly a common quality among Norris winners....

Lastly, the player usage charts for Habs defensemen shows he's being sheltered more than any other D on the team, with Diaz/Gorges/Yemelin/Markov taking all the tough opponents and D zone starts:



They do make one hell of a PP pairing, but based on all of the above there's simply no way he's a Norris candidate. The PP skill is mostly what he's bringing to the table.

- TommyDeVito

I agree with a lot of this but he will still finish second in norris voting if he continues his pace.
muffin_man
Montreal Canadiens
Location: no problem, as s hole - Eric Engels, NY
Joined: 02.10.2007

Apr 5 @ 12:29 PM ET
Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!

- glove_was_stuck

You may not have but most, or at least the vocal ones, have from day one.
God_then_kovy
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 02.06.2008

Apr 5 @ 12:32 PM ET
Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!

- glove_was_stuck

I agree with this. I don't like when he dives at all.
Habitants98
Montreal Canadiens
Location: ON
Joined: 02.24.2012

Apr 5 @ 12:34 PM ET

He's also 4th on his own team in TOI among defensemen, not exactly a common quality among Norris winners....

- TommyDeVito


so you're saying; when considering him for the Norris, that it looks worse for him that he is doing more in LESS time than the other top D?

this is the reason PK can never do right to some fans, always gotta go digging for whats wrong...even in the positive
MadManPaddy
Montreal Canadiens
Location: BC
Joined: 08.02.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:35 PM ET
I can't recall a winner of the Norris trophy that was not the leader in points by a defenseman at the end of the season?

If someone can point one out, I will stand corrected.

My point is, regardless of all the other stats that are being tossed out for discussion, if PK Subban has the most points by a defenseman come season's end, then he will likely win the Norris. I am pretty sure that the Norris is awarded primarily on points, with maybe the +/- differential being considered. The only debate here is would he have won it had it been a full season and the injuries to the other top D-men never happened but, ultimately, those are moot points.
Habitants98
Montreal Canadiens
Location: ON
Joined: 02.24.2012

Apr 5 @ 12:36 PM ET
You do an adorable impression of a hockey fan, Tommy.

Subban plays shutdown defense. You know who doesn't? Erik Karlsson.

- oniremosewa




on point

we all love Karlsson but this is something we ALL know, so it makes it even funnier to hear the PK criticism from a Sens fan
glove_was_stuck
Boston Bruins
Location: Yeah well that's like your opinion man, MA
Joined: 04.27.2011

Apr 5 @ 12:41 PM ET
You may not have but most, or at least the vocal ones, have from day one.
- muffin_man



Then they're blind...I guess. I don't like the Habs but good players are good players and you never know where they'll end up. I'd take that cannon of a shot on my team anyday.
PK_Prime_Time
Montreal Canadiens
Location: toronto, ON
Joined: 02.04.2011

Apr 5 @ 12:41 PM ET
I agree with this. I don't like when he dives at all.
- God_then_kovy



I disagree. I think you're trying very hard to be subjective,bro.
Habitants98
Montreal Canadiens
Location: ON
Joined: 02.24.2012

Apr 5 @ 12:42 PM ET
I can't recall a winner of the Norris trophy that was not the leader in points by a defenseman at the end of the season?

If someone can point one out, I will stand corrected.

My point is, regardless of all the other stats that are being tossed out for discussion, if PK Subban has the most points by a defenseman come season's end, then he will likely win the Norris. I am pretty sure that the Norris is awarded primarily on points, with maybe the +/- differential being considered. The only debate here is would he have won it had it been a full season and the injuries to the other top D-men never happened but, ultimately, those are moot points.

- MadManPaddy


Lubomir Vishnovsky - 2011 - 68pts - +18 = no norris

not that long ago, and probably why Lubo could care less about being in the NHL....but yeah Lubomir Vishnovsky lost it even though he had more points and a better +/- than Lidstrom

not that i'm saying he deserved it over Lidstrom since we know that with that legend the numbers dont tell the story, its just that based on how it was usually decided he definetly got shafted that year
PK_Prime_Time
Montreal Canadiens
Location: toronto, ON
Joined: 02.04.2011

Apr 5 @ 12:42 PM ET
so you're saying; when considering him for the Norris, that it looks worse for him that he is doing more in LESS time than the other top D?

this is the reason PK can never do right to some fans, always gotta go digging for whats wrong...even in the positive

- Habitants98



Nonsense!
MadManPaddy
Montreal Canadiens
Location: BC
Joined: 08.02.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:45 PM ET
Lubomir Vishnovsky - 2011 - 68pts - +18 = no norris

not that long ago, and probably why Lubo could care less about being in the NHL....but yeah Lubomir Vishnovsky lost it even though he had more points and a better +/- than Lidstrom

not that i'm saying he deserved it over Lidstrom since we know that with that legend the numbers dont tell the story, its just that based on how it was usually decided he definetly got shafted that year

- Habitants98


Your right, I also discovered that Chara won it in 08/09 even though Green had a 26 point lead over him.

So, I do stand corrected
TommyDeVito
Ottawa Senators
Location: We're gonna skate to one song, and one song only.
Joined: 12.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:46 PM ET
Weber deserved it more than Karlsson last year because he's a more complete defenseman. This year i think guys like Suter and Chara who put fear into the opposition's hearts when playing in their own zone deserve it more than Subban. But the award is given to the best offensive defenseman before it's given to the best defensive defeseman which makes it worthless in my books. Understand my point, son?
- God_then_kovy


It goes to the player who plays the best hockey at his position all-around, and it sure as hell did last year. Don't be jealous.

Anyone yammering on about putting "fear into hearts" is demonstrating they're more Don Cherry than legitimate hockey analyst.

slashtrash
Montreal Canadiens
Joined: 09.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:46 PM ET
Bruins fans never have questioned his potential or his skill. He is well on his way to being a great player. However he posses enough talent and skill to not have to pull the bullpoop that he does. That's what makes him frustrating to fans of many other teams not just Bruins fans...nice cheap shot though.

You can begin/resume your Marchand, Chara or both bashing now. Enjoy the rest of your day!

- glove_was_stuck

What about Lucic?
slashtrash
Montreal Canadiens
Joined: 09.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:47 PM ET
It goes to the player who plays the best hockey at his position all-around, and it sure as hell did last year. Don't be jealous.

Anyone yammering on about putting "fear into hearts" is demonstrating they're more Don Cherry than legitimate hockey analyst.

- TommyDeVito

TommyDeVito
Ottawa Senators
Location: We're gonna skate to one song, and one song only.
Joined: 12.15.2010

Apr 5 @ 12:48 PM ET


on point

we all love Karlsson but this is something we ALL know, so it makes it even funnier to hear the PK criticism from a Sens fan

- Habitants98


Go ahead, hate on the best all around defenseman and most dominant back end presence in the game. Only makes you look worse.

I wasn't criticizing PK, he's a great player and I said it twice now. But if you think 20 power play points and playing "shut-down defense" against third line players constitutes a Norris candidate, you're delusional.
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