[quote=MadManPaddyI can't recall a winner of the Norris trophy that was not the leader in points by a defenseman at the end of the season?

If someone can point one out, I will stand corrected.

My point is, regardless of all the other stats that are being tossed out for discussion, if PK Subban has the most points by a defenseman come season's end, then he will likely win the Norris. I am pretty sure that the Norris is awarded primarily on points, with maybe the +/- differential being considered. The only debate here is would he have won it had it been a full season and the injuries to the other top D-men never happened but, ultimately, those are moot points.

There's a poopload, man, come on, are you serious?

Two seconds of research would have been all it took here.

Weber deserved it more than Karlsson last year because he's a more complete defenseman. This year i think guys like Suter and Chara who put fear into the opposition's hearts when playing in their own zone deserve it more than Subban. But the award is given to the best offensive defenseman before it's given to the best defensive defeseman which makes it worthless in my books. Understand my point, son?
- God_then_kovy

Weber is for sure one of the best All-Around Defenceman in the league. Keep in mind, last season he played with an extremely defensive team with an ALL-STAR goalie to back them up and might I add another pretty good defenceman in Ryan Suter. So ya he's good, but you can say his numbers and productivity are helped by those factors. Whereas Karlsson didn't have that help.

Erik Karlsson Stats Last season - Only 3 Goals on PP. 16 at even strength avg TOI 25:19, with a mediocre Ottawa team last year. By those numbers, In my mind, he was more than just an offensive defenceman. If you watched games where he played, you can consistantly see Karlsson rushing the puck all the way up the ice, and most of the time be the first one back. I take nothing away from Karlsson winning the Norris.

Season Age Tm Lg GP G A PTS GC +/- PIM EV PP SH GW EV SH PP S S% ATOI 2011-12 21 OTT NHL 81 19 59 78 26 16 42 16 3 0 5 34 0 25 261 7.3 25:19

i can't believe the argument against PK is now that he doesnt play 28-30+ minutes a game

i think the general idea for coaches is that if they had other players who could eat up those minutes they definetly WOULD and wouldnt be forced to exhaust their stars there's a reason by the Habs D ice time is balanced....because THEY are balanced it doesnt mean MT is purposely cutting Subban's minutes because he doesnt want him on the ice....ridiculous

look at the Bs, after Chara its quite a significant drop-off Sidenberg is a very good shutdown D but thats ALL he can do, most teams only have 1 of those allround star D, we happen to have 2 and 3 more who CAN eat up minutes so why force PK to play 30?

I sort of agree, sort of disagree w/ Tommy on this.

I don't blame Therrien for using P.K. Subban in soft
- Travis Yost[er], offensive-minded minutes. It's brilliant deployment, and it's not dissimilar to what MacLean did last year w/ Karlsson. When you have a weapon like that, you give him the minutes, and let the plugs clean up the mess on the back-end.

Or, alternatively: the disparity between Subban and Canadien Defender X in DZ TOI is probably marginal; the disparity between Subban and Canadien Defender X in OZ TOI is probably great.

What I do agree w/ is that his points are padded by the power-play, and although he's been fantastic at driving possession on even-strength, the points simply haven't come, even though his on-ice shooting percentage is 10.22%, which is dumb high. On one front, I'd say that if Subban keeps playing as he is, the ES scoring will come. On the other front, I think the lack of scoring there can strip down his Norris candidacy -- unfortunately, the award's not awarded on what shouldbe happening there.

The PK argument is yawnworthy, as usual. You're not going to waste your best defenseman on heavy PK TOI if you have other depth that can pick up those minutes and preserve a quality defenseman w/ superior offensive skills to go to work at evens or the man advantage.

I'd give Subban a vote, but the ES scoring and lack of TOI probably holds him back from winning it.

I personally do not care what the naysayers say, I love PK and he in my opinion is the most exciting dman in the league. Watching on the pp is unreal and when he rockets another bomb that does it for me. Keep it going Subban, don't even worry about winning any trophies except the Stanley

so you're saying; when considering him for the Norris, that it looks worse for him that he is doing more in LESS time than the other top D?

this is the reason PK can never do right to some fans, always gotta go digging for whats wrong...even in the positive
- Habitants98

Yes, what is so hard to understand?

Statistically, he played less TOI per game than 4 other habs defensemen this season, and scored 2/3 of his points on the power play.

Marc Andre Bergeron scores a lot on the PP too. (and no, im not comparing the two, just pointing out the logic is sound)

If you take away PK Subban's power play time this season, and look at what he's done in 31 games of even-strength ice time, he has scored 10 points, has a +12, and skates against weaker competition than his teammates on the blueline.

The Habs have a lethal powerplay, and PK is a huge part of that, but that alone is not worthy of Norris conversation.

With that said, if what you're all telling me is true, and he's playing the toughest minutes every night against quality competition for the last 10-15 games, and he does that for the rest of this season with success, than I will agree he should be in the Norris finalists.

And if it's true, that chart I got above will look a LOT different than it does now.

There's a poopload, man, come on, are you serious?

Two seconds of research would have been all it took here.
- TommyDeVito

Angry much? Is all you have to do is come on sites like this and pick fights? I made a statement and was wrong. I admitted it.

Go ahead, hate on the best all around defenseman and most dominant back end presence in the game. Only makes you look worse.

I wasn't criticizing PK, he's a great player and I said it twice now. But if you think 20 power play points and playing "shut-down defense" against third line players constitutes a Norris candidate, you're delusional.
- TommyDeVito

notice how my statement started with 'we all love Karlsson' so im not hating, but its no secret he doesnt play shutdown anything, or that in his own Zone he's suspect its not hate its fact and yes what you were saying about PK is indeed criticism whether you think its constructive or not its still croticism, you're diggin pretty hard to find what he does wrong imo but you're definetly wrong about him not being a shutdown D

oh well your opinion, its like i said in my other post

Go ahead, hate on the best all around defenseman and most dominant back end presence in the game. Only makes you look worse.

I wasn't criticizing PK, he's a great player and I said it twice now. But if you think 20 power play points and playing "shut-down defense" against third line players constitutes a Norris candidate, you're delusional.
- TommyDeVito

I can respect your opinion Tommy, but you are the one who is not seeing clearly. Actually WATCH Canadiens games and tell me that Subban is playing against "third liners". Get that notion out of your mind, he plays against all lines all the time, and actually, if you want to compare who he's playing against, why not point out that on most occassions, it's Josh Gorges and P.K. Subban on the D pairing when Habs' fourth line is out.

Also, I don't know how you can say that he isn't in the conversation. Kris Letang for one (who I love as a hockey player) is playing on one of the most explosive offensive teams in the NHL, with arguably the two best players in the world (and they almost always have the puck might I add) and he is without a doubt in the discussion for the Norris (I know he is injured now). What is the difference between his success and Subban's? Subban is as solid as the best there is on defence in his own zone, is probably one of the best tape to tape passers in the NHL. Skates like the wind with anyone chasing him from behind. He's as good as anyone to kill time on the PK (his puck flicking in the air comes to mind) and he's tied for the league lead in pts on the PP. How this is not enough to prove that he is AT LEAST a contender makes no sense. The key is to actually watch the games and see how he plays, and how much he means to the Canadiens as a whole. His "less than good" start as you might have put it, is totally wrong, the guy was played sparingly for the first few games, and once MT saw that this guy was putting up the points, and the more ice time got the better he played, he was back to normal #1 defenceman minutes.

notice how my statement started with 'we all love Karlsson' so im not hating, but its no secret he doesnt play shutdown anything, or that in his own Zone he's suspect its not hate its fact and yes what you were saying about PK is indeed criticism whether you think its constructive or not its still croticism, you're diggin pretty hard to find what he does wrong imo but you're definetly wrong about him not being a shutdown D oh well your opinion, its like i said in my other post
- Habitants98

It's not fact, it's wishful thinking.

Sorry, you're wrong, I have stats to back me up and you don't. simple as that. You're just shooting off what you WANT to be happening, not what actually is.

Yes, what is so hard to understand?

Statistically, he played less TOI per game than 4 other habs defensemen this season, and scored 2/3 of his points on the power play.

Marc Andre Bergeron scores a lot on the PP too. (and no, im not comparing the two, just pointing out the logic is sound)

If you take away PK Subban's power play time this season, and look at what he's done in 31 games of even-strength ice time, he has scored 10 points, has a +12, and skates against weaker competition than his teammates on the blueline.

The Habs have a lethal powerplay, and PK is a huge part of that, but that alone is not worthy of Norris conversation.

With that said, if what you're all telling me is true, and he's playing the toughest minutes every night against quality competition for the last 10-15 games, and he does that for the rest of this season with success, than I will agree he should be in the Norris finalists.

And if it's true, that chart I got above will look a LOT different than it does now.
- TommyDeVito

ultimately we need a full season to evaluate PK Subban, much like any player

however what he's doing right now in a shortened season is impressive, impressive enough to get him noticed in Norris talks, it all relates to this particular season meaning even if you think his PP points wouldnt be enough in a full season, what he's able to do in this short timeframe may be enough overall

I can respect your opinion Tommy, but you are the one who is not seeing clearly. Actually WATCH Canadiens games and tell me that Subban is playing against "third liners". Get that notion out of your mind, he plays against all lines all the time, and actually, if you want to compare who he's playing against, why not point out that on most occassions, it's Josh Gorges and P.K. Subban on the D pairing when Habs' fourth line is out.

Also, I don't know how you can say that he isn't in the conversation. Kris Letang for one (who I love as a hockey player) is playing on one of the most explosive offensive teams in the NHL, with arguably the two best players in the world (and they almost always have the puck might I add) and he is without a doubt in the discussion for the Norris (I know he is injured now). What is the difference between his success and Subban's? Subban is as solid as the best there is on defence in his own zone, is probably one of the best tape to tape passers in the NHL. Skates like the wind with anyone chasing him from behind. He's as good as anyone to kill time on the PK (his puck flicking in the air comes to mind) and he's tied for the league lead in pts on the PP. How this is not enough to prove that he is AT LEAST a contender makes no sense. The key is to actually watch the games and see how he plays, and how much he means to the Canadiens as a whole. His "less than good" start as you might have put it, is totally wrong, the guy was played sparingly for the first few games, and once MT saw that this guy was putting up the points, and the more ice time got the better he played, he was back to normal #1 defenceman minutes.
- habs_mike_27

I'm not questioning his skills, he's got all the tools to be one of the top ten D in the league for years.

I'm questioning the statement the Steven made that what he has accomplished this season to date is Norris worthy.

It's not fact, it's wishful thinking.

Sorry, you're wrong, I have stats to back me up and you don't. simple as that. You're just shooting off what you WANT to be happening, not what actually is.
- TommyDeVito

When is the last time anyone saw Karlsson throw a PK thundering body check?? Oh yeah he won the Norris last year on offense alone. PK does everything!
I rest my case!

I'm not questioning his skills, he's got all the tools to be one of the top ten D in the league for years.

I'm questioning the statement the Steven made that what he has accomplished this season to date is Norris worthy.
- TommyDeVito

Get the Puck out of here Tommy.

I disagree. I think you're trying very hard to be subjective,bro.
- PK_Prime_Time

I love everything about PK's game except the diving. You can't deny he's often guilty of that.

I'm not questioning his skills, he's got all the tools to be one of the top ten D in the league for years.

I'm questioning the statement the Steven made that what he has accomplished this season to date is Norris worthy.
- TommyDeVito

Ok, fair enough, but someone has to win the trophy, and who has done better than him, in the circumstances? Don't give me Chara please because as solid as he might be on most nights (his long reach and huge stature play into his success tremendously) but a lackluster Boston powerplay and the inate ability to take penalties that cost your team victories (specifically against the habs), does not contribute to a Norris nomination in my mind.

Letang? Suter? Tell me in this 2/3 of a season who is the Norris leader?

I love everything about PK's game except the diving. You can't deny he's often guilty of that.
- God_then_kovy

The thing he gets away with the most is the Stick Grabbing, but hey Pronger has done some pretty dirty stuff in his day and got away with it. Why not him.

I love everything about PK's game except the diving. You can't deny he's often guilty of that.
- God_then_kovy

I agree 100 percent. Would like to see him take some boxing lessons in the off season and turn into a Mike Tyson. A few knock outs and he wins the Norris every year! That is the only real knock on him. To me he is a very impressive young man on and off the ice.

I agree 100 percent. Would like to see him take some boxing lessons in the off season and turn into a Mike Tyson. A few knock outs and he wins the Norris every year! That is the only real knock on him. To me he is a very impressive young man on and off the ice.
- flyerdude17

That would be sweet but he's just not that type of player.

It's not fact, it's wishful thinking.

Sorry, you're wrong, I have stats to back me up and you don't. simple as that. You're just shooting off what you WANT to be happening, not what actually is.
- TommyDeVito

i've watched every single game for the habs this year so no i think i'll go with what i see with my own eyes vs your stats

you claim Karlsson is the best D in the world and yet even his coach has said he's got work to do in his own end, and is NOT a shutdown D, and yet also won the Norris....but when it comes to PK its a different story....

suspect to say the least

Ok, fair enough, but someone has to win the trophy, and who has done better than him, in the circumstances? Don't give me Chara please because as solid as he might be on most nights (his long reach and huge stature play into his success tremendously) but a lackluster Boston powerplay and the inate ability to take penalties that cost your team victories (specifically against the habs), does not contribute to a Norris nomination in my mind.

Letang? Suter? Tell me in this 2/3 of a season who is the Norris leader?
- habs_mike_27

To me it is Subban. He leads in scoring despite missing 6 games, his team is in first place, everybody boos him on the road because he is public enemy #1 because he is so dam good. Letang is brittle, Weber is not having a Norris season, Chara does not match up to PK, and I think Suter is the only dman that can challenge PK this year.
Suter plays half of every game but overall is boring compared to PK.

To me it is Subban. He leads in scoring despite missing 6 games, his team is in first place, everybody boos him on the road because he is public enemy #1 because he is so dam good. Letang is brittle, Weber is not having a Norris season, Chara does not match up to PK, and I think Suter is the only dman that can challenge PK this year.
Suter plays half of every game but overall is boring compared to PK.
- flyerdude17

Tommy is about to explain to you how his chart says otherwise.

Ok, fair enough, but someone has to win the trophy, and who has done better than him, in the circumstances? Don't give me Chara please because as solid as he might be on most nights (his long reach and huge stature play into his success tremendously) but a lackluster Boston powerplay and the inate ability to take penalties that cost your team victories (specifically against the habs), does not contribute to a Norris nomination in my mind.

Letang? Suter? Tell me in this 2/3 of a season who is the Norris leader?
- habs_mike_27

Suter, hands down. Noone else has been as good this year.

Letang, Kronwall, Keith, Yandle, Timonen, hell, even Beauchemin statisically has been better than PK all-around.

First off, how many guys get nominated?

And if not Subban who should be nominated?

Ryan Suter for sure. But I need at least two other names

Suter, hands down. Noone else has been as good this year.

Letang, Kronwall, Keith, Yandle, Timonen, hell, even Beauchemin statisically has been better than PK all-around.
- TommyDeVito

How the hell do you figure?

i've watched every single game for the habs this year so no i think i'll go with what i see with my own eyes vs your stats

you claim Karlsson is the best D in the world and yet even his coach has said he's got work to do in his own end, and is NOT a shutdown D, and yet also won the Norris....but when it comes to PK its a different story....

suspect to say the least
- Habitants98

Source?

Oh, wait, you're not into that sort of thing, you like to go with what YOU see, what YOUR gut tells you....