I absolutely agree about the defense. Need some puck movers desperately. I am just saying, they have the 2 way talent already, so now they need to look at their team and say, these are the attributes we need to make this team better, and place players like that higher on thier draft board.
- youarewrong

I dont think its a matter of them selecting certain players higher on their draft board though.. I just think those players tend to be higher ranked players.

Usually the more gifted and well rounded you are the higher you get drafted.. there are some outliers, but those are few and far inbetween.

If you are elite in offensive skill, but a marginal two way player.. you will be a first round pick... but if you are gifted both ways you jump to a top pick. I think we need a better team game.. the pieces are there for us. Schenn, G, Voracek, Read are all very offensively gifted.

I could see that from McGinn. He's got some toughness to him.
- BulliesPhan87

chimera has elite speed which really separates him from the typical player of his size. always liked him as a solid 3rd liner.

I think people made it very clear it is not based on orginizational need. Over and Over again. The drafting of Laughton is perfect example that there is valdity to my assumption. Considering they already had Couturier, Schenn, and Cousins that are similiar players in the same position.
- youarewrong

I said rankings AND organizational needs. Rankings come first.

he goes into every off season w/ a different idea of what kind of team he wants to build. after the brilliant '08 makeover, we proceeded to hunting the puck, getting bigger, then getting that core defenseman, then getting bigger, faster, stonger, younger and last year it must have been mostly smaller, slower and weaker ( )

it's been discussed ad nauseum how it would be preferable to decide what kind of team they would like to be and build, draft, trade and coach around that. the obvious example is DET, but i think NJ and BOS would also qualify as examples. such an approach breeds org patience and prudence and would be unlikely to result in a bryz type move. no one can make a cogent argument that the flyers fit this profile.
- isaiah520

I've kind of harped on the idea that they dont really have an organization identity to the players they draft, or bring in via FA/trade. A lot of the time it seems like a bunch of guys thrown together. They have talent, but many times its not looked at how they fit together, or match up against the continously elite teams of the league.

All I ask is focus on being a hard team to play against in all 3 zones, having a punishing aggressive cycle game, being a team that initiates instead of simply counter-attacks, and bring in players who first and foremost can be said to be consistent hard workers.

No more "talent projects".

he goes into every off season w/ a different idea of what kind of team he wants to build. after the brilliant '08 makeover, we proceeded to hunting the puck, getting bigger, then getting that core defenseman, then getting bigger, faster, stonger, younger and last year it must have been mostly smaller, slower and weaker ( )

it's been discussed ad nauseum how it would be preferable to decide what kind of team they would like to be and build, draft, trade and coach around that. the obvious example is DET, but i think NJ and BOS would also qualify as examples. such an approach breeds org patience and prudence and would be unlikely to result in a bryz type move. no one can make a cogent argument that the flyers fit this profile.
- isaiah520

Meh. If it weren't for the Pronger injury, most of the silly talk here and poor Flyers' showing in the standings this season don't happen. That was the singular most important move Homer made - and the injury thus makes it the most glaring hole.

Without context, it just seems so misguided.

Which top team has made it a mandate to "get bigger", gone out and done it, and have it work for them?

How about "get better"?
- bradleyc4

Anaheim, Boston and Dean Lombardi with the Kings changed the draft strategy in LA to draft bigger. The only move he made counter to that was the Simmonds deal and he got Richards so you know...

Meh. If it weren't for the Pronger injury, most of the silly talk here and poor Flyers' showing in the standings this season don't happen. That was the singular most important move Homer made - and the injury thus makes it the most glaring hole.
- Flyskippy

I'd make that move for Pronger every day of the week.

Even on a bit of a decline when he arrived, he made this team better in every facet of the game, and is still helping the young kids learn (Luke Schenn).

The best move Holmgren made during his tenure imo was bringing in Pronger. There are some players, that to me, are always worth it.

Perfectly reasonable to give him a 2 year deal imo. Along with a guy like Streit.

Saving cap space is good and all, but its going to leave Holmgren sitting with a thumb up his ass when he could have signed a player to make the team better, but he chose to just "save cap space".

Remember the attitude this team seemed to play with when they had the year of the suspensions? When they had Lappy and when Pronger was playing? They need that back.
- flyer_nutter

You mean 2007-08 when Stevens was here and Hartnell, Boulerice, Downie, and Randy Jones all had suspensions?

The one thing I noticed during the year (and it did improve by the end) was the extremely poor passing game between the Flyer's skaters. There were zero tape to tape passes, and Forwards who were lucky to catch it in their skates and be able to get it onto their stick would often have a defender draped all over them by that point. Nothing hit anyone in stride allowing defenders the ability to take the puck away.

I thought Giroux was one of the only players who possessed a superior passing game. Which is one of the things I attribute to Voracek's big season. But everyone else just seemed off as far as timing. And I guess with little to no practice time, that became a huge problem.
- flyler

I agree with this. Hartnell couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a pass. And just about everyone else it was 50/50 on whether or not it would hamstring the player they were passing to or not. Kinda crazy to see all game long at this level...

I said rankings AND organizational needs. Rankings come first.
- Flyskippy

And I said they have to change their idea of how to rank the prospects, so really you agree.

And I said they have to change their idea of how to rank the prospects, so really you agree.
- youarewrong

Thus, the BPA is subjective.

I love running with my choke out.

You mean 2007-08 when Stevens was here and Hartnell, Boulerice, Downie, and Randy Jones all had suspensions?
- Flyskippy

Yes.

Those suspensions really seemed to have other teams coming after them, and seemed to pull the group together. They played, and many nights were almost forced to play with emotion. They need to play with that emotion consistently, and have more players that bring that element consistently as well.

They need to be harder to play against in the trenches up front, meaner, and be better at crashing the net instead of looking for the pretty play. On offense, its not there consistently enough. So if thats the area Holmgren wants to partly look at, I am all for it.

You mean 2007-08 when Stevens was here and Hartnell, Boulerice, Downie, and Randy Jones all had suspensions?
- Flyskippy

How dare you forget the Riley Cote suspension!

I agree with this. Hartnell couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a pass. And just about everyone else it was 50/50 on whether or not it would hamstring the player they were passing to or not. Kinda crazy to see all game long at this level...
- FlyersGrace

A lot of this fell on the D-men to me.

They could make the short crisp passes but rarely would skate the puck out far enough to allow the forwards more space. They would pass it to forwards right when they were standing at the other teams blue line.

Allowing said opposing team to stop any entry in the zone far too easily.

There wasn't enough flow.

A lot of this fell on the D-men to me.

They could make the short crisp passes but rarely would skate the puck out far enough to allow the forwards more space. They would pass it to forwards right when they were standing at the other teams blue line.

Allowing said opposing team to stop any entry in the zone far too easily.

There wasn't enough flow.
- flyer_nutter

They could always try to offer sheet Weber.

Meh. If it weren't for the Pronger injury, most of the silly talk here and poor Flyers' showing in the standings this season don't happen. That was the singular most important move Homer made - and the injury thus makes it the most glaring hole.
- Flyskippy

when a team has a consistent philosophy, it's easier replicate every phase of the org, from drafting all the way down the line. people often forget that before he got concussed, pronger had 3 surgeries in what he called his toughest off season ever. iow, your point is mitigated by the fact that a 37 yr old dman already in physical decline can't be the fulcrum for the team's fortunes w/o a plan B, imo. there was none and w/ the premium on dmen in this league, i think that's a fair issue to raise.

http://blogs.thescore.com...bug-eyed-fat-walrus-says/

Bill what about stalberg? He has size and is entering his prime. If we can fit him in that's insurance if we can't come to terms with read.

I've kind of harped on the idea that they dont really have an organization identity to the players they draft, or bring in via FA/trade. A lot of the time it seems like a bunch of guys thrown together. They have talent, but many times its not looked at how they fit together, or match up against the continously elite teams of the league.

All I ask is focus on being a hard team to play against in all 3 zones, having a punishing aggressive cycle game, being a team that initiates instead of simply counter-attacks, and bring in players who first and foremost can be said to be consistent hard workers.

No more "talent projects".


- flyer_nutter

yea, it's about building a certain kind of team instead of just collecting talent. i like a puck possession team myself, but either way, stick w/ a philosophy

when a team has a consistent philosophy, it's easier replicate every phase of the org, from drafting all the way down the line. people often forget that before he got concussed, pronger had 3 surgeries in what he called his toughest off season ever. iow, your point is mitigated by the fact that a 37 yr old dman already in physical decline can't be the fulcrum for the team's fortunes w/o a plan B, imo. there was none and w/ the premium on dmen in this league, i think that's a fair issue to raise.
- isaiah520

I simply would have liked to see Holmgren and the organization try and bridge the gap more.

They knew even when they brought in Pronger, or when he got the severe concussion they needed more talent on the back end. More complete talent, and not stricly one dimensional d-men.

They also knew, or should know that Timonen could very easily not be the iron-man he has been, and his retirement is coming soon as well.

The best Holmgren did in this time was to bring in Grossman, and draft Coots over Hamilton. He attempted to bring in Weber and Suter, and I expect him to learn to not put all of his hopes on the organization's ability to win with their pocket books.

yea, it's about building a certain kind of team instead of just collecting talent. i like a puck possession team myself, but either way, stick w/ a philosophy
- isaiah520

Right on. Right now, what are they really? Are they a defensive team? An aggressive offensive team? A team that is built from the net out?

What are they built to be, and what are they playing? They are almost like a tranny haha.

When you say puck possession, that requires smart players first and foremost. I dont know if I think of "smart" when I look at this crew. A system like Detriot you mean, where Babcock has successfully been married to his system and the organization has brought in players to fit it?

Im more of a middle ground guy. A believe in aggressive play, and initiating instead of just counter-attacking. Not doing it with insanity like Washington did under Bruce. Stressing defensive play but not being some team that always just sits back, and plays not to lose.

Cross Henrik Lundqvist off the list of goalies the Flyers would want.

I simply would have liked to see Holmgren and the organization try and bridge the gap more.

They knew even when they brought in Pronger, or when he got the severe concussion they needed more talent on the back end. More complete talent, and not stricly one dimensional d-men.

They also knew, or should know that Timonen could very easily not be the iron-man he has been, and his retirement is coming soon as well.

The best Holmgren did in this time was to bring in Grossman, and draft Coots over Hamilton. He attempted to bring in Weber and Suter, and I expect him to learn to not put all of his hopes on the organization's ability to win with their pocket books.
- flyer_nutter

on top of all that, both coby and carle needed contracts, so something had to give. when you're trading richards/carter, somewhere in the equation, a practicable option on d was needed. that's where i kinda lost faith in homer and stopped having high expectations.

Cross Henrik Lundqvist off the list of goalies the Flyers would want.


- Scoob

He's soft and has E. coli?!?

Right on. Right now, what are they really? Are they a defensive team? An aggressive offensive team? A team that is built from the net out?

What are they built to be, and what are they playing? They are almost like a tranny haha.

When you say puck possession, that requires smart players first and foremost. I dont know if I think of "smart" when I look at this crew. A system like Detriot you mean, where Babcock has successfully been married to his system and the organization has brought in players to fit it?

Im more of a middle ground guy. A believe in aggressive play, and initiating instead of just counter-attacking. Not doing it with insanity like Washington did under Bruce. Stressing defensive play but not being some team that always just sits back, and plays not to lose.
- flyer_nutter

i love the DET style; emphasis on speed, skill and possession; passes tape to tape; controlling the pace. sometimes it looks like they get pushed around, but if we are so worried about that, bring in a min salary guy for certain teams, if need be.