There's a difference between being the best player in the game and being legendary. There was a big stretch where Jagr was the premier player in the game, and he'd win the scoring race easily. To me, he's not as much of a legend as a guy like Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic. And they're not even close to the Gretzky/Lemieux's. To be a true legend, like I said, you need to basically transcend just the game.
- jmatchett383

I think it's like you said. It's easier to put guys into the legendary category when you havent seen them as much. We saw Jagr very often because of where he played. I didn't get to watch as many Wings or Avs games.

I think Magic and Bird are legendary more so that Lebron.
- jmatchett383

I'd have to think about it, but LeBron may not even be in my top twenty (basketball) right now. Maybe later, but not now.

I just think the Pens overall game seems to follow Malkin and more specifically Crosby. If they lose control, the team loses control. I feel if both guys made more of a commitment to defense, the team would be much better. Even if that means sacrificing offense.
- PhillySportsGuy

totally agree with you there man. malkin could be one of the premier defensive players in the game if he had the mind to do so. with his size, instinct, and reach, he could be a two way monster. he just doesnt have the drive for it. crosby isnt a total liability, and a lot of times the effort is there, but then every now and then he will throw in a total mishap where he seemingly just forgets where his man is or just some other lapse.

but they do tend to dictate the emotional barometer of the team.

I think Magic and Bird are legendary more so that Lebron.
- jmatchett383

Maybe right now. What if Lebron wins the next 4 titles?

I think Magic and Bird are legendary more so that Lebron.
- jmatchett383

lebron has another 8-10 years to build on his career though

Lidstrom may qualify as legendary. Need more time to think about it.
- Flyersgod

I think Lidstrom goes down as an all-time great. Really I think there are only 2 legends. Gretzky and Lemieux. Beyond them, there are all-time greats like Howe, Orr, Bosey, Plante, etc.

I'm not sure there will ever be anyone that will live up to the legned because these guys were putting up the best numbers in hockey before the rule changes to increase scoring. Even if someone like Crosby puts up Gretzky like numbers, an arguement can be made for rule changes and such being a factor...

Maybe right now. What if Lebron wins the next 4 titles?
- PhillySportsGuy

I still won't, because of his attitude.

I think Lidstrom goes down as an all-time great. Really I think there are only 2 legends. Gretzky and Lemieux. Beyond them, there are all-time greats like Howe, Orr, Bosey, Plante, etc.

I'm not sure there will ever be anyone that will live up to the legned because these guys were putting up the best numbers in hockey before the rule changes to increase scoring. Even if someone like Crosby puts up Gretzky like numbers, an arguement can be made for rule changes and such being a factor...
- youarewrong

Have you've ever seen Orr play?

I think it's like you said. It's easier to put guys into the legendary category when you havent seen them as much. We saw Jagr very often because of where he played. I didn't get to watch as many Wings or Avs games.
- PhillySportsGuy

i agree with this a lot. its the same premise as a prior time thing. we conjure up stories of like mythical proportions. chances are, if the same players we are discussing now had played a decade or two earlier, theyd be right there in the conversation with these legends.

I think Lidstrom goes down as an all-time great. Really I think there are only 2 legends. Gretzky and Lemieux. Beyond them, there are all-time greats like Howe, Orr, Bosey, Plante, etc.

I'm not sure there will ever be anyone that will live up to the legned because these guys were putting up the best numbers in hockey before the rule changes to increase scoring. Even if someone like Crosby puts up Gretzky like numbers, an arguement can be made for rule changes and such being a factor...
- youarewrong

I'd put Orr up there because he changed the way the game was played, Same with Howe and Richard because they were doing the unimaginable.

totally agree with you there man. malkin could be one of the premier defensive players in the game if he had the mind to do so. with his size, instinct, and reach, he could be a two way monster. he just doesnt have the drive for it. crosby isnt a total liability, and a lot of times the effort is there, but then every now and then he will throw in a total mishap where he seemingly just forgets where his man is or just some other lapse.

but they do tend to dictate the emotional barometer of the team.
- stayinthefnnet

They could both be very good defensively. They have elite skill and skate like the wind. Defense is entirely about a willingness to work hard and sacrifice scoring.

I think a coaching change to a more defensive minded coach would have helped. Bylsma helped the team loosen up, but now I think they need someone to reign them in.

I still won't, because of his attitude.
- jmatchett383

true. ill never necessarily like the guy, nor even the culture of the game he calls home anymore. but still, from a numbers, talent, and winning basis, he is hard to deny. especially when you consider what he will likely compile by the time he is done.

"@EdmontonOilers: Craig MacTavish announces the #Oilers have agreed to terms with Dman Denis Grebeshkov on a 1 year contract." #DepthIsGood

Who is this Grebeshkov fellow?

EDIT: I know he's played for them before, but I still know little about him.

I still won't, because of his attitude.
- jmatchett383

Good attitude top shelf

Bad attitude...beer in a can

They could both be very good defensively. They have elite skill and skate like the wind. Defense is entirely about a willingness to work hard and sacrifice scoring.

I think a coaching change to a more defensive minded coach would have helped. Bylsma helped the team loosen up, but now I think they need someone to reign them in.
- PhillySportsGuy

i agree as well. there is a team wide attitude that everything is just run and gun. they have the talent that typically if they keep their heads, if someone wants to play that with them they will likely outscore them and win. but when you run into a team who says enough of that poop and has the teamwide commitment to slow it down and dictate the pace, while still having the talent to pot some goals of their own, its a disaster.

i really hope scuderi has some left in the tank. he could help tremendously.

Sorry did you trade both Schenns AND Voracek for Weber?

- JAKEw1234

Haaaa I knew I forgot some players

Who knows I was thinkin B Schenn, Coburn, Read's rights, 1st

"@EdmontonOilers: Craig MacTavish announces the #Oilers have agreed to terms with Dman Denis Grebeshkov on a 1 year contract." #DepthIsGood

Who is this Grebeshkov fellow?
- JAKEw1234

pretty sure he's been in their system for a while

true. ill never necessarily like the guy, nor even the culture of the game he calls home anymore. but still, from a numbers, talent, and winning basis, he is hard to deny. especially when you consider what he will likely compile by the time he is done.
- stayinthefnnet

He'll be an amazing player in my book. But not a legend. To me, it's in the same region as McGwire. He did amazing things, but it's tainted. For Big Mac, it's tainted because he cheated. For LeBron, it's because he's a douche bag.

I don't have Crosby being held back because of his attitude. It's because he has yet to do anything where people (outside of Pittsburgh) will sit around and tell stories about the time they saw him play.

I saw Gretzky play 3 times, and I was in absolute awe each time. I saw Mario play twice and it was the same. I felt special to be in the same building as them. And players coming into the league felt the same way. I don't think there's been anyone that's come along since them that fits that. Like I said, Brodeur is probably the closest.

Maybe right now. What if Lebron wins the next 4 titles?
- PhillySportsGuy

So what, NBA is watered down compaired to when Wilt, Bird, and Jordan played. And Lebron is winning because a FA class decided to "buy" a championship. That is just Dirty IMO. Could you imagine Bird and Jordan leaving Chicago and Boston to play with the NETS at the same time.... Its just poor character.

Haaaa I knew I forgot some players

Who knows I was thinkin B Schenn, Coburn, Read's rights, 1st
- Just5

Or maybe Read with an extension. That's still a very messy roster you've got there.

true. ill never necessarily like the guy, nor even the culture of the game he calls home anymore. but still, from a numbers, talent, and winning basis, he is hard to deny. especially when you consider what he will likely compile by the time he is done.
- stayinthefnnet

I don't like Lebron, but I feel he has matured a lot. I won't hold his accomplishments against him because of youthful "decisions." (See what I did there)

i agree as well. there is a team wide attitude that everything is just run and gun. they have the talent that typically if they keep their heads, if someone wants to play that with them they will likely outscore them and win. but when you run into a team who says enough of that poop and has the teamwide commitment to slow it down and dictate the pace, while still having the talent to pot some goals of their own, its a disaster.

i really hope scuderi has some left in the tank. he could help tremendously.
- stayinthefnnet

He will. Solid signing. I think a guy like Sutter is invaluable because of his ability to play good two-way hockey. He will be expensive next offseason.

I just think the Pens overall game seems to follow Malkin and more specifically Crosby. If they lose control, the team loses control. I feel if both guys made more of a commitment to defense, the team would be much better. Even if that means sacrificing offense.
- PhillySportsGuy

This is an interesting point of view. Very early in Crosby's career, he was accused of being a whiner and he was. I think a lot of that had to do with cameras always being focused on him but yes, he did cry a lot but this was before the lens were his team. Players like Mario Lemieux, Mark Recchi, Ziggy Palfy And John LeClair weren't gonna follow that sort of behavior. Now teams like the Flyers and Bruins under Crosby's leadership know how to make the Penguins crumble. Something as small as watching Crosby smack Voracek's glove away as he goes to puck it up are clear signs.

i agree as well. there is a team wide attitude that everything is just run and gun. they have the talent that typically if they keep their heads, if someone wants to play that with them they will likely outscore them and win. but when you run into a team who says enough of that poop and has the teamwide commitment to slow it down and dictate the pace, while still having the talent to pot some goals of their own, its a disaster.

i really hope scuderi has some left in the tank. he could help tremendously.
- stayinthefnnet

What is the plan to get under the cap?

Have you've ever seen Orr play?
- 77rams

I did not see Orr play. I've seen highlights. Orr probally retired before I was born.... 1982?

But still, I don't think Orr's name stacks up with Gretzky...

I would say Orr has the same stature as say, Mickey Mantle does in baseball. Great all-time player, but Not Ruth, Aaron, DiMagio, Cy young.... know what I mean...