How did I ignore Howe? I put him in a previous post, I was just rattling off names.

I did says that Orr and them are some of the greats all-time...

I just think people use Legend too loosely. Orr, one of the greatest. Gretzky and Lemieux... the greatest.
- youarewrong

The Orr argument is impossible. The knock is his longevity. He's undoubtedly on another planet defensively, even against Ray Bourque (the 2nd best all-around defenseman ever). The injury argument is a legitimate one. To me, there are 4 legends in hockey: Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Howe. I actually think that, all things equal, Lemieux is the best player ever. He was a machine when he was healthy. But when it comes to the mythical feats, Gretzky's the one that gets remembered most.

I completely understand.

But when you discuss NHL D-men, the first name mentioned is Orr. Everyone else is a distant second. The only knock is longevity which makes for a valid argument.

But while he played, other than revolutionizing the position, he's the only d-man to win the scoring title (twice), racked up 8 Norris Trophy's in a row, and won the Hart three times, also in a row. And did all this while practically one one leg.

Not to mention, still holds the record for the most points scored in a year by a d-man.

It's all opinion, but he is not only the greatest d-man to lace them up, he's arguably one of the all time greats in the game.
- 77rams

Can't agrue with that at all. All-time great. That is what I'm saying. Just not Gretzky good.

My take is the pens are weaker going into this year. I think Cooke and Kennedy are highly valuable as 3rd liners

Scuderi was a monster signing, the defense should be better. It all could be a wash Bc I think that highly of Scuderi. However the depth of the forward unit if the top 6 were to sustain injury is scarce
- Just5

i agree they are somewhat weaker. but then again, they had themselves a little paper championship heading into the playoffs last year and it got them nothing.

i agree the loss of cooke sucks, and kennedy was a decent energy sparkplug, but their salaries kind of priced them out.

i have huge hopes for bennett providing he gets quality time. same with despres, although the scuds signing may push him to the back again.

regardless, i think the pens, barring injury calamity, should make the postseason. their year will be defined on what they do when they get there.

Orr remains the greatest player I have ever seen, and I saw him when he was broken down near the end of his career. Gretzky's brilliance was not in his physical ability, but in his hockey smarts and on ice vision.

Orr was the complete package, amazing skater, great hockey sense, had a nasty streak to him, as well...and he did it on one leg. To undersell that because Gretzky piled up points in the highest scoring era in history, while a member of the highest scoring team, really undersells what Orr did.

To say that Orr isn't up there with Gretzky shows a marked ignorance of the history of the game.
- Jsaquella

Defensemen just didn't do the things Bobby Orr did when he did them.

Orr changed the game and specifically, how defensemen are used, play, and deployed.

Orr's greatness is unmistakable.

Because I've yet to see him be the man to lead his team to a Cup. When Lemieux won his Cups, he had a great supporting cast. But there was no doubt that Lemieux was the reason they won. Same with Gretzky. When the Pens won, he wasn't their best player. To begin the "legendary" talk, he needs to be come out and just take over and entire playoffs like those guys did.
- jmatchett383

Giroux may never surpass Crosby but I'll settle with wanting to watching Giroux dominate a series again Crosby, while knocking him on his ass in Game 7 again. Crosby, I could careless to see what he ends up doing next. I don't think Crosby gets as many calls in his favor anymore but there were times when did and it was a joke.

Keith Primeau in 2004 certainly fits that bill.....


But yeah, when the Flyers were playing a Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Roy...I made sure I was early and watched those guys all night long.
- Jsaquella

Primeau's right up there with Henderson. No one will say, "Wow, remember Henderson's 74/75 season. That was crazy!" They remember him for 3 games. The same with Primeau. No one remembers his days in Detroit or his numbers in Philadelphia. He's got a local legend surrounding him because of a month-and-a-half run where he basically won a Cup by himself.

That's fine, but you can say the same about Lindros. If, if, if, if. I'm not understating his skill, but he needs to put aside the ifs and do it.
- jmatchett383

i totally agree. youll get no argument from me saying lindros wasnt up there in skill as well.

Giroux may never surpass Crosby but I'll settle with wanting to watching Giroux dominate a series again Crosby, while knocking him on his ass in Game 7 again. Crosby, I could careless to see what he ends up doing next. I don't think Crosby gets as many calls in his favor anymore but there were times when did and it was a joke.
- dingo8urbaby

If I knew I could embellish and get my team PPs and a chance to win, I'd do it. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game (league). If anything, it's the fault of the refs/league for letting him get away with it.

Giroux may never surpass Crosby but I'll settle with wanting to watching Giroux dominate a series again Crosby, while knocking him on his ass in Game 7 again. Crosby, I could careless to see what he ends up doing next. I don't think Crosby gets as many calls in his favor anymore but there were times when did and it was a joke.
- dingo8urbaby

you have preference for giroux as a fan, and like i always say, thats your right. he definitely got the best of him that series, but i dont think he will ever surpass him as a better player.

and i agree with you on the last part. it was that way in the beginning, but has virtually disappeared now.

Keith Primeau in 2004 certainly fits that bill.....


But yeah, when the Flyers were playing a Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Roy...I made sure I was early and watched those guys all night long.
- Jsaquella

Man, I drove down in the blizzard the day the Flyers played the Kings and the window blew out and cancelled the game. IN THE BLIZZARD!!!!

I think Magic and Bird are legendary more so that Lebron.
- jmatchett383

Fair enough.

Orr remains the greatest player I have ever seen, and I saw him when he was broken down near the end of his career. Gretzky's brilliance was not in his physical ability, but in his hockey smarts and on ice vision.

Orr was the complete package, amazing skater, great hockey sense, had a nasty streak to him, as well...and he did it on one leg. To undersell that because Gretzky piled up points in the highest scoring era in history, while a member of the highest scoring team, really undersells what Orr did.

To say that Orr isn't up there with Gretzky shows a marked ignorance of the history of the game.
- Jsaquella

I think that is going a little too far. I know my hockey history. I've watched the black and white games. And no-one is argueing the importance of Orr or his accomplishments, but Gretzky is the best hockey player of all time. Sure he played on a great Edmonton team, but its not like he sucked when he was traded to LA.

If you ask anyone who the greatest player was, 9 out of 10 will tell you Gretzky...

foppa

Primeau's right up there with Henderson. No one will say, "Wow, remember Henderson's 74/75 season. That was crazy!" They remember him for 3 games. The same with Primeau. No one remembers his days in Detroit or his numbers in Philadelphia. He's got a local legend surrounding him because of a month-and-a-half run where he basically won a Cup by himself.
- jmatchett383

Henderson had a good, very solid career that was better than Primeau's....I just tease MoAT because he isn't a Primeau fan

i agree they are somewhat weaker. but then again, they had themselves a little paper championship heading into the playoffs last year and it got them nothing.

i agree the loss of cooke sucks, and kennedy was a decent energy sparkplug, but their salaries kind of priced them out.

i have huge hopes for bennett providing he gets quality time. same with despres, although the scuds signing may push him to the back again.

regardless, i think the pens, barring injury calamity, should make the postseason. their year will be defined on what they do when they get there.
- stayinthefnnet

Agreed. But now, they're tied into the Crosby/Malkin/Letang crew for 8 years. They should have been able to win 2-3 Cups by now. But if they don't, they can't do a major roster makeover. I guess they COULD trade one of Malkin or Letang, but that's kinda a poopty thing to do (Jeff Carter says hi).

Just heard an interview with Willie Mays.

The radio host asked him if he was playing today, what would his batting average be?

Mays deadpanned about .250. The host was flummoxed, Mays said not too shabby for an 82 year old huh?

Primeau's right up there with Henderson. No one will say, "Wow, remember Henderson's 74/75 season. That was crazy!" They remember him for 3 games. The same with Primeau. No one remembers his days in Detroit or his numbers in Philadelphia. He's got a local legend surrounding him because of a month-and-a-half run where he basically won a Cup by himself.
- jmatchett383

I was actually a bit surprised when looking at Primeau's regular season stats here and how pedestrian they were, but I'm pretty sure his role changed when Hitchcock took over the team and he became more of a defensive guy.

Henderson had a good, very solid career that was better than Primeau's....I just tease MoAT because he isn't a Primeau fan
- Jsaquella

Oh, absolutely. Henderson was an all-star caliber player, Primeau was a good center. Just saying, they're both remembered best for short-lived runs, not careers.

Agreed. But now, they're tied into the Crosby/Malkin/Letang crew for 8 years. They should have been able to win 2-3 Cups by now. But if they don't, they can't do a major roster makeover. I guess they COULD trade one of Malkin or Letang, but that's kinda a poopty thing to do (Jeff Carter says hi).
- jmatchett383

crosby and malkin should never be moved. the wagons are hitched to them. if they dont win another one in their era, it cannot be considered anything other than a big disappointment. no sugar coating it.

crosby and malkin should never be moved. the wagons are hitched to them. if they dont win another one in their era, it cannot be considered anything other than a big disappointment. no sugar coating it.
- stayinthefnnet

That's my point. To me, right now, they ARE a disappointment. There's no reason that a team that stacked hasn't won mutliple cups. They should be like the Wings/Avs of the mid-90s/early-00s. The Cup should have to go through Pittsburgh every year. It doesn't.

But agreed about Crosby, he shouldn't be moved. I've made my point about trading Malkin, and what I'd do were I Pittsburgh's GM. PM me if you want my crazy idea.

Jim Vandermeer over Andy Delmore?

Just heard an interview with Willie Mays.

The radio host asked him if he was playing today, what would his batting average be?

Mays deadpanned about .250. The host was flummoxed, Mays said not too shabby for an 82 year old huh?


- PLindbergh31

That's actually an old Ty Cobb quip.

http://www.baseball-alman....com/quotes/quocobb.shtml

Primeau's right up there with Henderson. No one will say, "Wow, remember Henderson's 74/75 season. That was crazy!" They remember him for 3 games. The same with Primeau. No one remembers his days in Detroit or his numbers in Philadelphia. He's got a local legend surrounding him because of a month-and-a-half run where he basically won a Cup by himself.
- jmatchett383

Oh boy...

Butthead didn't even get to a final in his career let alone win a Stanley Cup.

Just heard an interview with Willie Mays.

The radio host asked him if he was playing today, what would his batting average be?

Mays deadpanned about .250. The host was flummoxed, Mays said not too shabby for an 82 year old huh?


- PLindbergh31

Did you just watch Cobb?

Oh boy...

Butthead didn't even get to a final in his career let alone win a Stanley Cup.
- mayorofangrytown

Sorry. He almost got them to a final by himself.