Neither. I just understand that Orr is on the same level as Gretzky, because I do more than look at stats and go WOW
- Jsaquella

AND even if you want to argue that Gretzky benefited from playing on a good team in a high scoring era, he was still the best player of that era(not like that boston team was chumps). 9 time leauge MVP. More MVP records then anyone in any North American Sport. HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE 9 TIMES.

And somehow I end up always getting called out for attacking other people...
- youarewrong

Do you get into arguments with different posters on a daily basis? That'd be why you get called out for it.

Your entire argument is based on Gretzkys scoring. There's more to the game than scoring. Also, I'm not knocking Gretzky, at all. Absolutely one of, if not the greatest player ever. You are the one that's knocking Orr by saying he's not on that level. That's selling Orr's impact on the sport very short.

Here's a question. Now that Lidstrom is retired, can Lidstrom prove to rival Orr as one of if not the best defenseman of all time? Long Jevity might be in Lidstrom's favour. Lidstrom also played in a bigger and arguably a tougher time.

I suppose the question should be can any of our stars of this generation takeover past stars of a past generation?

AND even if you want to argue that Gretzky benefited from playing on a good team in a high scoring era, he was still the best player of that era(not like that boston team was chumps). 9 time leauge MVP. More MVP records then anyone in any North American Sport. HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE 9 TIMES.
- youarewrong

Was Alexander Ovechkin the best player in the NHL last season? He won the Hart Trophy, so obviously he was...again, you don't seem to realize I'm not doubting Gretzkys greatness.

Despite having a very weak transition game that really hurt the offense, they were still 9th in league in goals for, above teams like Boston, Vancouver, LA, Detroit, and Edmonton. Not exactly what I'd call struggling, maybe a little bit of a down year, but struggling isn't the right term.
- JAKEw1234

Scored a lot of goals on the PP. They were a mediocre ES offensive team. Offset even more by how poor they were defensively at ES.

Here's a question. Now that Lidstrom is retired, can Lidstrom prove to rival Orr as one of if not the best defenseman of all time? Long Jevity might be in Lidstrom's favour. Lidstrom also played in a bigger and arguably a tougher time.

I suppose the question should be can any of our stars of this generation takeover past stars of a past generation?
- dingo8urbaby

I think Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman, behind Orr. He lacked Orr's ability offensively, but was probably better defensively than Orr. The durability issue hurts Orr, but had he played in another era, with better surgical techniques, perhaps his knees hold up better

I think Lidstrom is the 2nd best defenseman, behind Orr. He lacked Orr's ability offensively, but was probably better defensively than Orr. The durability issue hurts Orr, but had he played in another era, with better surgical techniques, perhaps his knees hold up better
- Jsaquella

Tough choice between Borque and Lidstrom

It's not going too far. There's still people that will tell you Orr is the greatest ever.

Sorry, but if you say that Orr isn't on the level of Gretzky and Lemieux, then you are wrong. I don't care if you watch black and white games, you obviously didn't understand what you were watching.

Had Orr played in the same era as Gretzky and gotten the same media attention, it'd be less than 9 out of 10 people saying Gretzky is the greatest ever.
- Jsaquella

They played different positions, but Orr was every bit as dominant as Gretzky was. Both players were so far and above everyone else, it was almost mythical.

Scored a lot of goals on the PP. They were a mediocre ES offensive team. Offset even more by how poor they were defensively at ES.
- MJL

I think a lot of that can be attributed to the transition game. On the PP they didn't have to worry about the transition, they were left to play their cycle. With the transition game Streit and Gus will bring next year I expect to see the ES numbers rise considerably if not dramatically.

They played different positions, but Orr was every bit as dominant as Gretzky was. Both players were so far and above everyone else, it was almost mythical.
- MJL

If Orr had played in the same era as Gretzky.. its Paul Coffey who would suffer by comparison (in my idiot opinion and as always I reserve the right to be wrong).

Really, Tavares over Stamkos?
- opeth_pa

i know it sounds like a stretch. im still not entirely convinced myself, but if i had to pick, yeah i think i would. i do realize i am basing this largely on stamkos remaining static and jt growing, but still. if forced to choose a non penguin forward to start a team, i think i go with tavares

Tough choice between Borque and Lidstrom
- KINGKENZO

Bourque is an extremely close third, with Potvin in the mix...Doug Harvey is in there, too, but I never saw him live

My opinion is the cap will eventually plateau. But regardless, with Malkins, Crosbys, and Letangs contracts it will be hard to ice a decent cast of supporting players. Soon Neal will need a new contract. I'm not saying its going to happen right away, but... So I expect them to be good for another 3-4 years, and with that comes low draft picks that wont will the holes of guys leaving like Dupuis etc... and you wont be able to get UFAs to sign because of cap...
- youarewrong

What are you basing that the Cap will eventually plateau on?

They played different positions, but Orr was every bit as dominant as Gretzky was. Both players were so far and above everyone else, it was almost mythical.
- MJL

Exactly the point I'm trying to make.

So here is a question for everyone ..

You can pick 1 of the following to start your franchise, you get that player in his prime in today's game, who do you pick?

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe

I am pretty sure I would go Mario with Orr a close second.
- opeth_pa

Even though I just said I (begrudgingly) think 99 was the best player ever, I'd still take Orr as the person to build my team around. I just think it is easier (as we see with the current Flyers) to find top caliber forwards than it is top caliber defensemen. I'd rather start my team with the best D-man ever and try to get my offense elsewhere. Plus, Orr will be on the ice more than Gretky or Mario (just a general comment on the fact that top D's tend to average more ice time than top F's), so he'd have that much more time to use his talent to influence the game.

I think a lot of that can be attributed to the transition game. On the PP they didn't have to worry about the transition, they were left to play their cycle. With the transition game Streit and Gus will bring next year I expect to see the ES numbers rise considerably if not dramatically.
- JAKEw1234

i agree with this 100 percent. on the pp, your guys were able to just focus on offense and establish possession in a zone and let talent shine. even strength, it was often difficult for you guys to find the same zone time, due to transition struggles and getting hemmed in your own zone. if streit and gus add that element for you guys, it should help a lot. too much offensive talent to be consistently that bad

Orr.

Without hesitation.
- 77rams

Orr? I can superman over a goalie too whoop dee doo

Bourque is an extremely close third, with Potvin in the mix...Doug Harvey is in there, too, but I never saw him live
- Jsaquella

Nor I, but I was thinking Potvin and Robinson

What are you basing that the Cap will eventually plateau on?
- MJL

i think it will go up fairly high in time. just have to weather the next few years

Gretzky was before my time, but just from my understanding of his game and watching some of his tapes I have a problem with a lot of people that say he was the best there ever was. I think it was NHL network that made a montage of the top 10 goals of all time. In that top 10 was a Gretzky goal where literally all he did was carry the puck down low, the goalie flew out of the crease and ended up on his ass leaving an empty net, Gretzky skated around the net and put in the empty netter. I was just like, "that was one of the top 10 goals of all time? Really?". I think Gretzky was amazing, don't get me wrong. I just think the game was so different then, the goalie style so much more reckless, and prone to letting in so many more goals, that I think Gretzky playing today wouldn't put up any more points than Stamkos or Ovechkin or Crosby (in a full season). I think 1 goal back then is not equal to 1 goal now. The game is just so different. I hear people who watched the game then say that most players today wouldn't be able to survive in the league back then. I think it's the opposite, and a lot of players from then wouldn't be so far and above in today's game. That being said, I'd take Orr. If you have the choice between a superstar forward and a superstar dman, you've gotta go dman and build out.
- JAKEw1234

I have to disagree here. Hockey is Hockey. And Gretzky or Lemieux playing today in their prime. Would blow away Stamkos, Crosby, or Ovechkin in scoring. It wouldn't be close.

- hereticpride

Good. Lord.

Nor I, but I was thinking Potvin and Robinson
- KINGKENZO

Yeah, Robinson would be in that mix as far as guys I have seen live. Mark Howe, Pronger, Brad Park and Al MacInnis would be high on my list, too

I think a lot of that can be attributed to the transition game. On the PP they didn't have to worry about the transition, they were left to play their cycle. With the transition game Streit and Gus will bring next year I expect to see the ES numbers rise considerably if not dramatically.
- JAKEw1234

I agree with that. And I hope you're right about it improving. Although defensively is where the biggest improvement is needed.

I think a lot of that can be attributed to the transition game. On the PP they didn't have to worry about the transition, they were left to play their cycle. With the transition game Streit and Gus will bring next year I expect to see the ES numbers rise considerably if not dramatically.
- JAKEw1234

You cannot underestimate masons ability to move the puck and the effect that will have. That is actually reason #1 for me being ok with the bryz buyout.