But his job is to be a physical shutdown defnseman, not an offensive-minded defenseman like Carle. Part of his job is to hit often.
- jmatchett383

I think he can be more than that.

I think he can be more than that.
- bradleyc4

He can, and hopefully will. But part of a physical defneseman's game (you can use grossmann here as well) is to be physical. A defenseman's primary responsibility is to stop an opposing player. One way that is very effective for those 2 is to use a bodycheck, so they do it when they can. A player like Carle or Timonen aren't very imposing players, so they don't bodycheck as much. I'd argue that Timonen is the best defensively of them all, but it doesn't mean that Carle is better defensively than Schenn and Grossmann because he has less hits.

Luke Schenn should be hitting players. That's part of his job. My point was that as he becomes a better all-around defenseman, he won't have to hit as much.
- bradleyc4

It really depends on what he's asked to do.

So are all of the GMs and coaches just incorrect then any time that a player like Rinaldo is played?
- jmatchett383

I'm fine with comparing Rinaldo possession numbers and everything else against players who play the same role as Rinaldo, but to simply look at a players numbers (any numbers, really) and pass judgement without knowing how the player is used is short sighted.

You know what, this is getting nowhere, so fine.

Zac Rinaldo sucks and should be relegated to the ECHL.
Hitting is a detriment to a player's effectiveness and should be used sparingly, if at all

Moving on, will Rosehill make Team Canada?

You're right. A new line of thinking has no place in a game as old as the NHL.

I guess that's why most teams have an analytics team. Because there's no place for it. It's not as old as the NHL. No team has had success using them as a tool to help better understand the game and their roster.
- bradleyc4

I never stated that it has no place in the game. I said numerous times that some of it is very valuable. What I've said repeatedly is that Advanced stats should not be the primary source for analyzing the value of a player in the lineup. And this discussion of Rinaldo is a classic example of that.
And if you're using advanced stats to make a case that there is no place in the NHL for a playe like Rinaldo, then those stats are clearly being misused and over valued.

I never stated that it has no place in the game. I said numerous times that some of it is very valuable. What I've said repeatedly is that Advanced stats should not be the primary source for analyzing the value of a player in the lineup. And this discussion of Rinaldo is a classic example of that.
And if you're using advanced stats to make a case that there is no place in the NHL for a playe like Rinaldo, then those stats are clearly being misused and over valued.
- MJL

I don't need advanced stats to show me that guys like Rinaldo don't belong in the game. It just solidifies my stance.

Luke Schenn should be hitting players. That's part of his job. My point was that as he becomes a better all-around defenseman, he won't have to hit as much.
- bradleyc4

Not neccessarily true. Players are used in roles and in situations. A lot of that is going to dicate "how much a player has to hit". And some players have natural limiations to their game. Luke Schenn is never going to be a high possession, high shot generating player.

I don't need advanced stats to show me that guys like Rinaldo don't belong in the game. It just solidifies my stance.
- bradleyc4

I've asked you mumerous times to make that case, without bringing advanced stats such as Corsi into it. I asked you to explain and make your case that hits are bad.

I'm fine with comparing Rinaldo possession numbers and everything else against players who play the same role as Rinaldo, but to simply look at a players numbers (any numbers, really) and pass judgement without knowing how the player is used is short sighted.
- johndewar

Exactly! But we see that time and again from the advance stats community. They use the same standard of judgement for a 4th line role player, that is used for a 1st line Center.

I just had a look at Lappy's 2009/2010 stats.

In 82 games, he had 3 goals and 17 assists. He was a -1 on a good (not great, good) Flyers team. He was 2nd on the team in PIM and 3rd on the team in hits. He had 21 takeaways to 12 giveaways (1.75:1 ratio). He is revered.

In 32 games last year (pro-rated to 82 games), Rinaldo had 8 goals and 5 assists, was a -18 on a horrendous Flyers team. He was 1st on the team in PIM and 2nd on the team in hits. He had 5 giveaways to 10 takeaways (2:1 average).

So, over a full 82 game, pro-rated season, Rinaldo had more goals than Lappy's 09/10 season, both were in the top 3 in both hits and PIM on the team, and Rinaldo had a better takeaway-giveaway ratio than Lappy. The only large difference is their +/-, which has as much to do with the strength of the overall team as the individual.

But I wouldn't say Lappy is worthless, because he brings much more to the table than just stats. He's a prime example of how important "intangibles" are.

Some commentary from McKenzie on how team Canada is disappointed Giroux could not attend it's orientation camp. Apparently the Flyers want him rehabbing. Of note.. SO DO I!!.. and, the team is supposed to go golfing... no way Claude! lol

www.tsn.ca

The video is on the right side entitled insider trading August 25.

Yes, I am desperate for hockey news of any kind.

I've asked you mumerous times to make that case, without bringing advanced stats such as Corsi into it. I asked you to explain and make your case that hits are bad.
- MJL

Nothing I tell you will break through the barrier of the traditional NHL narratives you hold so dear.

Basically, yes. There's a time and place for it, but being among the league leaders in hits is not a good thing.
- bradleyc4

Being a league leader in hits does not directly translate to the other team having the puck more.

Nothing I tell you will break through the barrier of the traditional NHL narratives you hold so dear.
- bradleyc4

That is a mistaken viewpoint on your part. Make your case! It's painfully obvious that your opinion on the value of Rinaldo as a player is based on Corsi.
I can watch a player play, and come to an informed opinion on that player. I don't need an invented mathematical formula to point out to me who is a good player, and who isn't. Who should be in the NHL, and who shouldnt. I know the value of the physical game on the ice, and what it can do for a team, and how it affects the opposition. I can look and see intangibles that come out on the ice, and make a huge difference, that can't be measured by any advanced stat.

And as I've also stated many times. I see real value in some advanced stats, such as offensive zone starts and finishes. But when it becomes the main source of palyer analysis, there's a problem. Because there is tons of flaws in it.

I might have an idea why there haven't been many posters in here lately

Nothing I tell you will break through the barrier of the traditional NHL narratives you hold so dear.
- bradleyc4

I dont mean to be nosey but..... Oh yes I do. Rinaldo does in fact hold a value to the flyers and there is no reason that he doesnt belong in the NHL. He is a high energy, hard checking forward that is meant to bring energy and toughness to the lineup and he does exactly what he is paid to do. If you dont like it try watching basketball. Hockey is a physical sport.

That is a mistaken viewpoint on your part. Make your case! It's painfully obvious that your opinion on the value of Rinaldo as a player is based on Corsi.
I can watch a player play, and come to an informed opinion on that player. I don't need an invented mathematical formula to point out to me who is a good player, and who isn't. Who should be in the NHL, and who shouldnt. I know the value of the physical game on the ice, and what it can do for a team, and how it affects the opposition. I can look and see intangibles that come out on the ice, and make a huge difference, that can't be measured by any advanced stat.

And as I've also stated many times. I see real value in some advanced stats, such as offensive zone starts and finishes. But when it becomes the main source of palyer analysis, there's a problem. Because there is tons of flaws in it.
- MJL

It's not Corsi-based. Rinaldo has no chance of posting a solid Corsi rating playing on the 4th line with crummy teammates and starting in the Def. Zone 65% of the time.

That's only one puzzle piece.

I might have an idea why there haven't been many posters in here lately
- funmaster18

It's the off season. This time of year is typically slow.

I might have an idea why there haven't been many posters in here lately
- funmaster18

Eugene Melnyk hacked them all?

It's not Corsi-based. Rinaldo has no chance of posting a solid Corsi rating playing on the 4th line with crummy teammates and starting in the Def. Zone 65% of the time.

That's only one puzzle piece.
- bradleyc4

I agree with that statement. I'm trying to have a conversation here, and find out what you're opinion is based on. Why hits are bad, and why a player like Rinaldo doesn't belong in the NHL. But all you've been willing to offer to this point is Corsi.

And as you pointed out, which I agree with. It's pretty much impossible for Rinaldo to have good Corsi numbers with the situations he plays in, and with who he plays with.

Disappointing. Not funny.
- bradleyc4

I'm guessing you weren't a fan of the Flyers third round draft pick.

I'm guessing you weren't a fan of the Flyers third round draft pick.
- PLindbergh31

How can you tell, unless you have his Corsi numbers handy?

How can you tell, unless you have his Corsi numbers handy?
- jmatchett383

I very rarely look at those numbers, sure they are useful tools when applied correctly. There are too many advanced stats. I don't want hockey going the way of baseball where there are pencil protector geeks crunching every number known to man. The eye test may be old fashioned, but it is still one of the best tools used to evaluate.

I very rarely look at those numbers, sure they are useful tools when applied correctly. There are too many advanced stats. I don't want hockey going the way of baseball where there are pencil protector geeks crunching every number known to man. The eye test may be old fashioned, but it is still one of the best tools used to evaluate.
- PLindbergh31