You've stated it many times, but you can't support it, or make that case. And you're simply wrong that Rinaldo brings zero offensive or defensive acumen to the ice.
- MJL

14pts, -11 in 105 nhl games kinda supports his point imho...

14pts, -11 in 105 nhl games kinda supports his point imho...
- Pecafan Fan

if you were speaking about a guy playing a larger role, for sure... but Rinaldo is on the ice to bring a physical presence, forecheck relentlessly, pressure defenders, and hope to force turnovers...

if you were speaking about a guy playing a larger role, for sure... but Rinaldo is on the ice to bring a physical presence, forecheck relentlessly, pressure defenders, and hope to force turnovers...
- jak521

We have a guy like that on the Habs. His name is Ryan White.

And he's absolutely useless.

if you were speaking about a guy playing a larger role, for sure... but Rinaldo is on the ice to bring a physical presence, forecheck relentlessly, pressure defenders, and hope to force turnovers...
- jak521

I think the spot could be better allocated to a guy who has a real talent, especially defensively.

14pts, -11 in 105 nhl games kinda supports his point imho...
- Pecafan Fan

Actually it doesn't support his point. That doesn't point out that Rinaldo brings nothing to ice offensively or defensively.

I think the spot could be better allocated to a guy who has a real talent, especially defensively.
- bradleyc4

That's because you dismiss the talents that Rinaldo does possess.

- Crimsoninja

Totally forgot about that one.

Rinaldo does have a talent.

Totally forgot about that one.

Rinaldo does have a talent.
- bradleyc4

Player throws a hit that the other team doesn't like. Other team and coach get pissed, blah, blah, blah. That's why you do what the Flyers did. Put Wayne Simmonds out next to Avery. And what did Avery do? Skated away! And what happened to Giroux?

I think the spot could be better allocated to a guy who has a real talent, especially defensively.
- bradleyc4

that is fair enough.

Player throws a hit that the other team doesn't like. Other team and coach get pissed, blah, blah, blah. That's why you do what the Flyers did. Put Wayne Simmonds out next to Avery. And what did Avery do? Skated away! And what happened to Giroux?
- MJL

That was my point.. guys can say whatever they want. Honestly, if you are not targeting your oppositions best players every game you are making a mistake. I dont mean illegally either. I have never seen a star player take a cheap shot from an opposition team as an act of retribution from a big hit by a grinder... most likely because it has never happened.

Zac Rinaldo has a heart, can skate and can throw a big body-check. Fantastic.

So you want to dismiss Corsi, and just prop up his Zone Starts to build your argument? That sound an awful lot like the argument used against people who look at "advanced stats"....picking and choosing the ones that best make your argument.

Yes, Rinaldo drew more penalties than he took. But so did Danny Briere this past season. Where are those accolades? He was always looked at as a guy who took a lot of needless penalties. Are the penalties he took, even though less than he drew, considered worse than Rinaldo's?

Or maybe, just maybe...we're putting too much stock into a small sample size.

Rinaldo offers next to nothing offensively or defensively. He's regularly pitted against the other team's worst players and still can't post a positive shot differential. His lack of skill is further evidenced by the fact that because he and his teammates are typically being outshot, his only defense is to hit anything that moves. Which, at times, has put his teammates at risk of retribution.

Sign me up for two more years of Zac Rinaldo!
- bradleyc4

They didn't pay Briere 6.5 million a year to draw more penalties. He's an offensively talented center, his job is to set up plays and score goals. I don't have a horse in this race. I could not care less who feels what about a 4th line grinder. And I'm not dismissing Corsi at all, but if you judge a fish on his ability to fly then you won't get much out of it. Rinaldo gets paid to bang bodies, create energy and not be a defensive liability. He does all of that, while doing a generally good job of keeping the puck out of the D zone. His Corsi is horrible, but no poop. I think if you are going to try to use advanced statistics to get some type of measurement on Rinaldo, that his zone starts is the most relevant. At least with his current role on the team. Maybe you feel that a 4th line player in today's NHL should have a different role than the one Rinaldo does, and that's perfectly acceptable. But to say he shouldn't be an NHL'er because his best asset is hitting, that's wicked ignorant.

They didn't pay Briere 6.5 million a year to draw more penalties. He's an offensively talented center, his job is to set up plays and score goals. I don't have a horse in this race. I could not care less who feels what about a 4th line grinder. And I'm not dismissing Corsi at all, but if you judge a fish on his ability to fly then you won't get much out of it. Rinaldo gets paid to bang bodies, create energy and not be a defensive liability. He does all of that, while doing a generally good job of keeping the puck out of the D zone. His Corsi is horrible, but no poop. I think if you are going to try to use advanced statistics to get some type of measurement on Rinaldo, that his zone starts is the most relevant. At least with his current role on the team. Maybe you feel that a 4th line player in today's NHL should have a different role than the one Rinaldo does, and that's perfectly acceptable. But to say he shouldn't be an NHL'er because his best asset is hitting, that's wicked ignorant.
- GirouxForTheShow

Very well said!

They didn't pay Briere 6.5 million a year to draw more penalties. He's an offensively talented center, his job is to set up plays and score goals. I don't have a horse in this race. I could not care less who feels what about a 4th line grinder. And I'm not dismissing Corsi at all, but if you judge a fish on his ability to fly then you won't get much out of it. Rinaldo gets paid to bang bodies, create energy and not be a defensive liability. He does all of that, while doing a generally good job of keeping the puck out of the D zone. His Corsi is horrible, but no poop. I think if you are going to try to use advanced statistics to get some type of measurement on Rinaldo, that his zone starts is the most relevant. At least with his current role on the team. Maybe you feel that a 4th line player in today's NHL should have a different role than the one Rinaldo does, and that's perfectly acceptable. But to say he shouldn't be an NHL'er because his best asset is hitting, that's wicked ignorant.
- GirouxForTheShow

More flawed logic.

Guys like Briere are paid to set up and score goals, but when the opposition scores just as many (or more) when you're out on the ice -- the value of your offense is zilch.

More flawed logic.

Guys like Briere are paid to set up and score goals, but when the opposition scores just as many (or more) when you're out on the ice -- the value of your offense is zilch.
- bradleyc4

This is flawed. Briere is not the only player on the ice when goals are scored against. And when Briere scores a big goal in the playoffs, that ties the game, or is the game winner. That can hardly be of zero value.

So what you're saying is that Briere's 30 points in the 09/10 playoffs had zero to do with the Flyers getting to the Stanley Cup Finals? Is that correct?

This is flawed. Briere is not the only player on the ice when goals are scored against. And when Briere scores a big goal in the playoffs, that ties the game, or is the game winner. That can hardly be of zero value.

So what you're saying is that Briere's 30 points in the 09/10 playoffs had zero to do with the Flyers getting to the Stanley Cup Finals? Is that correct?
- MJL

Flawed thinking.

He is not the only one on the ice when his line scores either.

Anything can happen in the span of twenty games. Look at Ville Leino's stats during the same time period. Buffalo underpaid for him, apparently.

Flawed thinking.

He is not the only one on the ice when his line scores either.

Anything can happen in the span of twenty games. Look at Ville Leino's stats during the same time period. Buffalo underpaid for him, apparently.
- bradleyc4

So it's flawed thinking when he scores 12 goals and 18 assists in a playoff season. With 4 GW goals He didn't have anything to do with that directly?

What's the difference there? We know without any doubt that Briere had something to do with those goals being scored. We don't know however that Briere is at fault for every goal scored against when he's on the ice. If you have documented proof of that, I'd be happy to look at it.

Again I'll ask you to make a case for how Briere's offense had zero value to the team. Just as I've asked you repeatedly to make a case to back up your premise concerning Rinaldo.

Are you saying that it was a fluke that Briere scored those points in that playoff Season? Because we can look at other playoff Seasons also. And are you really comparing Briere to Leino?

It's pretty clear what is flawed here.

So it's flawed thinking when he scores 12 goals and 18 assists in a playoff season. With 4 GW goals He didn't have anything to do with that directly?

What's the difference there? We know without any doubt that Briere had something to do with those goals being scored. We don't know however that Briere is at fault for every goal scored against when he's on the ice. If you have documented proof of that, I'd be happy to look at it.

Again I'll ask you to make a case for how Briere's offense had zero value to the team. Just as I've asked you repeatedly to make a case to back up your premise concerning Rinaldo.

Are you saying that it was a fluke that Briere scored those points in that playoff Season? Because we can look at other playoff Seasons also. And are you really comparing Briere to Leino?

It's pretty clear what is flawed here.
- MJL

Crystal clear.

Crystal clear.
- bradleyc4

Absolutely is. I can make a lock tight case that Briere's offense had a huge impact for the Flyers. You cannot make a legitimate case that his offense had zero value to the Flyers. Just as you haven't backed up your premise concerning Rinaldo.

Absolutely is. I can make a lock tight case that Briere's offense had a huge impact for the Flyers. You cannot make a legitimate case that his offense had zero value to the Flyers. Just as you haven't backed up your premise concerning Rinaldo.
- MJL

Just because you disagree with my premise, doesn't mean I haven't backed it up.

Just because you disagree with my premise, doesn't mean I haven't backed it up.
- bradleyc4

You haven't backed it up. All you've offered is Corsi. Then you stated that your opinion isn't based on Corsi. Then you again used Corsi in a reply concerning Rinaldo after you stated that it wasn't based on it. And you've made other non-sensical statemenst such as "being among the League leaders in hits is a bad thing", without supporting it. We can review if needed.

You haven't backed it up. All you've offered is Corsi. Then you stated that your opinion isn't based on Corsi. Then you again used Corsi in a reply concerning Rinaldo after you stated that it wasn't based on it. We can review if needed.
- MJL

Let's review:

I stated that his Corsi sucks.

Then I stated that his Corsi sucks because he's a 4th line plugger playing with other 4th line pluggers who get the majority of their icetime starts in the defensive zone. It's tough to gain a respectable Corsi rating under those conditions.

Then the context of Corsi was brought up by someone else as it pertains to the 4th line role. Which I don't agree with. I can agree, to a point, that the large % of defensive zone starts is a factor to look at when evaluating, but so is the quality of competition. Overall, it doesn't matter what line you play on -- if you give up a lot more shot opportunities against than for your team, you're not putting your team in a good position to win, despite the number of entertaining HUGE HITS you dole out.

Then I only brought up Corsi again because another poster referenced another Voodoo (advanced) stat as part of his claim that Rinaldo isn't that bad, while deftly leaving out other contextual stats -- which I claimed is a stereotypical hypocrisy usually laid upon those who look at Voodoo stats.

You haven't backed it up. All you've offered is Corsi. Then you stated that your opinion isn't based on Corsi. Then you again used Corsi in a reply concerning Rinaldo after you stated that it wasn't based on it. And you've made other non-sensical statemenst such as "being among the League leaders in hits is a bad thing", without supporting it. We can review if needed.
- MJL

There's no value in simply out-hitting your opponent.

Let's review:

I stated that his Corsi sucks.

Then I stated that his Corsi sucks because he's a 4th line plugger playing with other 4th line pluggers who get the majority of their icetime starts in the defensive zone. It's tough to gain a respectable Corsi rating under those conditions.

Then the context of Corsi was brought up by someone else as it pertains to the 4th line role. Which I don't agree with. I can agree, to a point, that the large % of defensive zone starts is a factor to look at when evaluating, but so is the quality of competition. Overall, it doesn't matter what line you play on -- if you give up a lot more shot opportunities against than for your team, you're not putting your team in a good position to win, despite the number of entertaining HUGE HITS you dole out.

Then I only brought up Corsi again because another poster referenced another Voodoo (advanced) stat as part of his claim that Rinaldo isn't that bad, while deftly leaving out other contextual stats -- which I claimed is a stereotypical hypocrisy usually laid upon those who look at Voodoo stats.
- bradleyc4

Huge contradiction here. In one paragraph, you're stating reasons why Corsi really shouldn't be used to evaluate a player such as Rinaldo, which I agree with completely. The in the next paragraph, you're completely contradicting that statement, and using Corsi to criticize Rinaldo as a player. So again you're back to usng Corsi as your only argument.
And the last statement in the 2nd paragraph reinforces the fact that you overlook or are just unaware, what physical play, and the hits that Rinaldo lays out, does for a team. And how it affects the game, and helps a team win. Because like I said previously, don't watch the game, because if Corsi or any other advanced stat can't show it, it doesn't exist.
While Corsi isn't a good stat to use. Zone starts and finishes is for a player like Rinaldo, and the situations he plays in, is.
The only time Advanced stats beleivers get criticized, is when they completely misuse them, and focus only on those stats. Which is the single biggest fault of the Advanced stats community. And your posts contribute greatly to that.

Let's review:

I stated that his Corsi sucks.

Then I stated that his Corsi sucks because he's a 4th line plugger playing with other 4th line pluggers who get the majority of their icetime starts in the defensive zone. It's tough to gain a respectable Corsi rating under those conditions.

Then the context of Corsi was brought up by someone else as it pertains to the 4th line role. Which I don't agree with. I can agree, to a point, that the large % of defensive zone starts is a factor to look at when evaluating, but so is the quality of competition. Overall, it doesn't matter what line you play on -- if you give up a lot more shot opportunities against than for your team, you're not putting your team in a good position to win, despite the number of entertaining HUGE HITS you dole out.

Then I only brought up Corsi again because another poster referenced another Voodoo (advanced) stat as part of his claim that Rinaldo isn't that bad, while deftly leaving out other contextual stats -- which I claimed is a stereotypical hypocrisy usually laid upon those who look at Voodoo stats.
- bradleyc4

Huge contradiction here. In one paragraph, you're stating reasons why Corsi really shouldn't be used to evaluate a player such as Rinaldo, which I agree with completely. The in the next paragraph, you're completely contradicting that statement, and using Corsi to criticize Rinaldo as a player. So again you're back to usng Corsi as your only argument.
And the last statement in the 2nd paragraph reinforces the fact that you overlook or are just unaware, what physical play, and the hits that Rinaldo lays out, does for a team. And how it affects the game, and helps a team win. Because like I said previously, don't watch the game, because if Corsi or any other advanced stat can't show it, it doesn't exist.
While Corsi isn't a good stat to use. Zone starts and finishes is for a player like Rinaldo, and the situations he plays in, is.
The only time Advanced stats beleivers get criticized, is when they completely misuse them, and focus only on those stats. Which is the single biggest fault of the Advanced stats community. And your posts contribute greatly to that.