Huge contradiction here. In one paragraph, you're stating reasons why Corsi really shouldn't be used to evaluate a player such as Rinaldo, which I agree with completely. The in the next paragraph, you're completely contradicting that statement, and using Corsi to criticize Rinaldo as a player. So again you're back to usng Corsi as your only argument.
And the last statement in the 2nd paragraph reinforces the fact that you overlook or are just unaware, what physical play, and the hits that Rinaldo lays out, does for a team. And how it affects the game, and helps a team win. Because like I said previously, don't watch the game, because if Corsi or any other advanced stat can't show it, it doesn't exist.
While Corsi isn't a good stat to use. Zone starts and finishes is for a player like Rinaldo, and the situations he plays in, is.
The only time Advanced stats beleivers get criticized, is when they completely misuse them, and focus only on those stats. Which is the single biggest fault of the Advanced stats community. And your posts contribute greatly to that.
- MJL

Rinaldo is only hitting because he has no other serviceable NHL talents.

Sensible hitting to separate a player from a puck is certainly a welcomed tool. Zac Rinaldo doesn't do anything sensibly.

Deploying a player simply for the hope that he might help change momentum by potentially injuring an opponent is a waste of a roster spot.

Rinaldo is only hitting because he has no other serviceable NHL talents.

Sensible hitting to separate a player from a puck is certainly a welcomed tool. Zac Rinaldo doesn't do anything sensibly.

Deploying a player simply for the hope that he might help change momentum by potentially injuring an opponent is a waste of a roster spot.
- bradleyc4

So you're saying that if Rinaldo was a top PKer, his hitting game would cease? And now the true bias comes out in this statement. You aren't doing yourself any favors with this reply. All it does is point out that other then misusing Corsi, you can't make a reasonable case for why, as you've stated previously. That Rinaldo does not belong on the Flyers, or in the NHL.

So you're saying that if Rinaldo was a top PKer, his hitting game would cease? And now the true bias comes out in this statement. You aren't doing yourself any favors with this reply. All it does is point out that other then misusing Corsi, you can't make a reasonable case for why, as you've stated previously. That Rinaldo does not belong on the Flyers, or in the NHL.
- MJL

Not sure why you're incorporating "what if's" into your argument.

There are successful NHL players who also rack up hits -- Scott Hartnell, Dustin Brown, Milan Lucic, David Backes, etc. But they have other tools that make them valuable NHL players.

Rinaldo does not add to the offense. He does not add to the defensive game. He's only out there for "physicality". And to me, that is worthless.

That is a pretty cut-and-dry explanation. Not sure how to simplify it any further. You can respond with your "I don't think you understand the value of physicality" comments, but I beg to differ. It is you who does not understand the value, or lack thereof.

Not sure why you're incorporating "what if's" into your argument.

There are successful NHL players who also rack up hits -- Scott Hartnell, Dustin Brown, Milan Lucic, David Backes, etc. But they have other tools that make them valuable NHL players.

Rinaldo does not add to the offense. He does not add to the defensive game. He's only out there for "physicality". And to me, that is worthless.

That is a pretty cut-and-dry explanation. Not sure how to simplify it any further. You can respond with your "I don't think you understand the value of physicality" comments, but I beg to differ. It is you who does not understand the value, or lack thereof.
- bradleyc4

I'm not incorporating what ifs into my argument. I'm countering your statement "Rinaldo is only hitting because he has no other serviceable NHL talents." Which was a pretty silly statement to make on your part. As if Rinaldo developed into a better scorer, or checker, that hitting would no longer be part of his game. If you want to state that Rinaldo is in the NHL because of his physical hitting ability, we'd be in agreement.

Now you're comparing top line NHL players to a 4th line role player. Which also doesn't make sense

It's not a pretty cut and dry explanation, it's just an explanation. More like an opinion. But it's one that you can't substantiate. I can substantiate, and have already, how Rinaldo contributes to the offense.

I've asked you repeatedly to substantiate those statements. Going on for about 3 days now.

I'm open to reading any reasonable thought that you can provide backed up by some reasonable basis, that shows how I don't understand the value, or lack thereof. Provide a reasonable argument. You haven't to this point.

How Zac Rinaldo was snubbed by the Canadian Olympic team is a travesty.

Couldn't help but look at the Blackhawks line up in the playoffs to see how many Rinaldos they had in their Stanley cup winning lineup.

Closest I found was Carcillo (who played on 4 games) and maybe Bollig (who only played 5 games).

Then you have to look at a guy like Bolland or Bickell... who are both much, much better players than Rinaldo.


Edit: and as a Habs fan, I can't help but laugh at the signing of a guy like George Parros, who will bring absolutely nothing to the team, except driving up the average height/weight of the team. Useless.

I'm not incorporating what ifs into my argument. I'm countering your statement "Rinaldo is only hitting because he has no other serviceable NHL talents." Which was a pretty silly statement to make on your part. As if Rinaldo developed into a better scorer, or checker, that hitting would no longer be part of his game. If you want to state that Rinaldo is in the NHL because of his physical hitting ability, we'd be in agreement.

Now you're comparing top line NHL players to a 4th line role player. Which also doesn't make sense

It's not a pretty cut and dry explanation, it's just an explanation. More like an opinion. But it's one that you can't substantiate. I can substantiate, and have already, how Rinaldo contributes to the offense.

I've asked you repeatedly to substantiate those statements. Going on for about 3 days now.

I'm open to reading any reasonable thought that you can provide backed up by some reasonable basis, that shows how I don't understand the value, or lack thereof. Provide a reasonable argument. You haven't to this point.
- MJL

I'm not comparing Rinaldo to top line players. I'm saying that there is definitely a role for physicality in the NHL, but it cannot be your only attribute.

You need to have added value beyond just being able to throw your body at someone else's.

Your stance includes this idea that Rinaldo's hits are useful because he's able to separate the opponent from the puck. Please explain to me how many of Rinaldo's hits have successfully separated a player from a puck; and how it compares to other players, especially 4th liners -- so we have an apples-to-apples comparison. Since this is such an integral part of the offense, I'm sure this stat is easily accessible. Perhaps there's a "member's only" section of NHL.com where this stat is housed, because I'm not finding it.

You know, so we can back up our claims.

I'm not comparing Rinaldo to top line players. I'm saying that there is definitely a role for physicality in the NHL, but it cannot be your only attribute.

You need to have added value beyond just being able to throw your body at someone else's.


- bradleyc4

Yes, you most certainly did compare Rinaldo to top line NHL players. It's in black and white.
No you don't need to have added value just beyond being able to play a physical game. Especially on a team such as the Flyers, that bases it's entire offensive attack on a strong, physical forecheck. If what you're saying was true, Rinaldo wouldn't be on the Flyers or in the NHL. When he obviously is. Not to mention that Laviolette would frequently start games with Rinaldo on the ice to set a physical tone. You also fail to consider that Rinaldo is a young and still developing player. He's played 98 NHL games. Which is a little more then a full Season. And his game is evolving. And he's shown through his play that he is becoming more mature and understands his role better. Which Bill alluded to in his blog.

Your stance includes this idea that Rinaldo's hits are useful because he's able to separate the opponent from the puck. Please explain to me how many of Rinaldo's hits have successfully separated a player from a puck; and how it compares to other players, especially 4th liners -- so we have an apples-to-apples comparison. Since this is such an integral part of the offense, I'm sure this stat is easily accessible. Perhaps there's a "member's only" section of NHL.com where this stat is housed, because I'm not finding it.

You know, so we can back up our claims.
- bradleyc4

See were back to stats again. LOL. I'll restate what I've stated many times previously. For many of the Advanced stats community, if it can't be shown in stats, it doesn't exist. Simply watch the game.
My stance is, and if need be I'll link to previous pages where I've said this. That physical play such as what Rinaldo provides, has a cumalative effect on the game. It wears down players, causes them to hesitate and make mistakes, and causes turnovers. It's one of the basics of a good forecheck. First guy in takes the body, second guy takes the puck.
And I can support that stance with direct comments and quotes from NHL players and Coaches on how that affects the game. How it sets the tone, raises the emotions of a team.
And I can also show specific examples of how Rinaldo's physical play has gained the Flyers offensive opportunities that have led to goals. Of how he has set the tone for games and given the Flyers an advantage.

You however cannot provide anything of substance to support your stance that Rinaldo is worthless as a player, shouldn't be on the Flyers, and shouldn't be in the NHL. If you could, you would.

Yes, you most certainly did compare Rinaldo to top line NHL players. It's in black and white.
No you don't need to have added value just beyond being able to play a physical game. Especially on a team such as the Flyers, that bases it's entire offensive attack on a strong, physical forecheck. If what you're saying was true, Rinaldo wouldn't be on the Flyers or in the NHL. When he obviously is. Not to mention that Laviolette would frequently start games with Rinaldo on the ice to set a physical tone. You also fail to consider that Rinaldo is a young and still developing player. He's played 98 NHL games. Which is a little more then a full Season. And his game is evolving. And he's shown through his play that he is becoming more mature and understands his role better. Which Bill alluded to in his blog.



See were back to stats again. LOL. I'll restate what I've stated many times previously. For many of the Advanced stats community, if it can't be shown in stats, it doesn't exist. Simply watch the game.
My stance is, and if need be I'll link to previous pages where I've said this. That physical play such as what Rinaldo provides, has a cumalative effect on the game. It wears down players, causes them to hesitate and make mistakes, and causes turnovers. It's one of the basics of a good forecheck. First guy in takes the body, second guy takes the puck.
And I can support that stance with direct comments and quotes from NHL players and Coaches on how that affects the game. How it sets the tone, raises the emotions of a team.
And I can also show specific examples of how Rinaldo's physical play has gained the Flyers offensive opportunities that have led to goals. Of how he has set the tone for games and given the Flyers an advantage.

You however cannot provide anything of substance to support your stance that Rinaldo is worthless as a player, shouldn't be on the Flyers, and shouldn't be in the NHL. If you could, you would.
- MJL

The Flyers roster is littered with players that own a physical edge to their game. That can intimidate and wear down their opponent. That can be aggressive on the forecheck, or any zone on the ice.

There's absolutely no need to carry a guy like Rinaldo for that purpose. Especially when he could be replaced by a defensive specialist that could give the team's top offensive talent some breathers on the PK or in the defensive zone. That's how championship teams do it, at least.

The Flyers roster is littered with players that own a physical edge to their game. That can intimidate and wear down their opponent. That can be aggressive on the forecheck, or any zone on the ice.

There's absolutely no need to carry a guy like Rinaldo for that purpose. Especially when he could be replaced by a defensive specialist that could give the team's top offensive talent some breathers on the PK or in the defensive zone. That's how championship teams do it, at least.
- bradleyc4

Preferring a different type of player over Rinaldo is a different argument. One which I wouldn't completely disagree with. And has zero to do with what Rinaldo brings to the ice as a player, and whether he belongs in the NHL or not. And that he brings zero to the team offensively and defensively. Which is obviously false.
There's been a lot of Championship teams over the years. They all do it differently. More then one way to skin a cat.

And again, you're not giving any credence that Rinaldo is a developing player. Who has a chance to develop other parts of his game, and contribute in other areas. It's a process for a lot of young players. But the elements that Rinaldo currently brings to the ice, helps the Flyers.

Preferring a different type of player over Rinaldo is a different argument. One which I wouldn't completely disagree with. And has zero to do with what Rinaldo brings to the ice as a player, and whether he belongs in the NHL or not. And that he brings zero to the team offensively and defensively. Which is obviously false.
There's been a lot of Championship teams over the years. They all do it differently. More then one way to skin a cat.

And again, you're not giving any credence that Rinaldo is a developing player. Who has a chance to develop other parts of his game, and contribute in other areas. It's a process for a lot of young players. But the elements that Rinaldo currently brings to the ice, helps the Flyers.
- MJL

If Rinaldo is able to develop a useful NHL tool/skill other than hitting, I will reconsider my opinion. As it stands now, I would not employ him on my team. He can take his act where it belongs - in the minor leagues.

If Rinaldo is able to develop a useful NHL tool/skill other than hitting, I will reconsider my opinion. As it stands now, I would not employ him on my team. He can take his act where it belongs in the minor leagues.
- bradleyc4

Well, it's just an opinion that he belongs in the minor leagues. The Flyers feel differently. And for good reason. Your argument has changed for obvious reasons as it's been pointed out that it was a flawed argument. I'd rather have a player like Ian lappariere also over a player like Rinaldo is right now. A player who can be a mainstay on the PK, and provide leadership. But Lappariere didn't enter the League as that player. He evolved into it. It takes time.

Well, it's just an opinion that he belongs in the minor leagues. The Flyers feel differently. And for good reason. Your argument has changed for obvious reasons as it's been pointed out that it was a flawed argument. I'd rather have a player like Ian lappariere also over a player like Rinaldo is right now. A player who can be a mainstay on the PK, and provide leadership. But Lappariere didn't enter the League as that player. He evolved into it. It takes time.
- MJL

Most guys who eventually find that niche as valuable role players were once prolific scorers in lower leagues. They had other skills besides hip checks and face punching.

That's why I'm very doubtful that Rinaldo ever evolves into anything more than he is today.

Most guys who eventually find that niche as valuable role players were once prolific scorers in lower leagues. They had other skills besides hip checks and face punching.

That's why I'm very doubtful that Rinaldo ever evolves into anything more than he is today.
- bradleyc4

Well you can have those doubts, but that doesn't make it the case. There is no reason why Rinaldo can't develop other parts of his game, such as becoming a better defensive forward, who can play on the PK. I don't beleive the Flyers feel the same way as you do.

Well you can have those doubts, but that doesn't make it the case. There is no reason why Rinaldo can't develop other parts of his game, such as becoming a better defensive forward, who can play on the PK. I don't beleive the Flyers feel the same way as you do.
- MJL

My doubts are historically based. Your wishful thinking is done with orange-tinted glasses and blind faith.

My doubts are historically based. Your wishful thinking is done with orange-tinted glasses and blind faith.
- bradleyc4

First of all, I did not disagree with your statement about most role players. Secondly, I did not state that Rinaldo will develop other skills such as being able to contribute to the PK, only that it is possible. So your statement that I have wishful thinking done with orange-tinted glasses and blind faith, is extremely foolish. Unless you have a crystal ball and know for a fact that he can't develop other areas of his game. Which you obviously don't.

First of all, I did not disagree with your statement about most role players. Secondly, I did not state that Rinaldo will develop other skills such as being able to contribute to the PK, only that it is possible. So your statement that I have wishful thinking done with orange-tinted glasses and blind faith, is extremely foolish. Unless you have a crystal ball and know for a fact that he can't develop other areas of his game. Which you obviously don't.
- MJL

Well I'm hopeful that Steve Mason wins the Vezina, Erik Gustafsson wins the Norris, Max Talbot wins the Rocket Richard and Zac Rinaldo wins the Lady Byng.

This is a fun game of hoping for things that very likely won't happen.
BUT THEY COULD!

Well I'm hopeful that Steve Mason wins the Vezina, Erik Gustafsson wins the Norris, Max Talbot wins the Rocket Richard and Zac Rinaldo wins the Lady Byng.

This is a fun game of hoping for things that very likely won't happen.
BUT THEY COULD!
- bradleyc4

It's not unreasonable to think that it's possible that Rinaldo improves defensively as a player, and at some point could contribute to the PK. The Flyers, incuding Peter Laviolette have discussed it. Which is why they played Rinaldo on the PK in his time in the AHL during last Season's lockout.
Which is a far more reasonable possibility then having players such as you named reach the pinnacle of the sport.

http://www.comcastsportsn...&blockID=781171&tagID=530

holy cow

holy cow
- -davies-

That's a lot of argumentation when you consider Rinaldo is a 4th line plug that would clear waivers if he was to be waived...

That's a lot of argumentation when you consider Rinaldo is a 4th line plug that would clear waivers if he was to be waived...
- Pecafan Fan

I would bet that if Rinaldo was waived, he would be claimed by another team.

I would bet that if Rinaldo was waived, he would be claimed by another team.
- MJL

Somehow, I knew you'd say that.

Somehow, I knew you'd say that.
- Pecafan Fan

Young player with promise, on a cheap contract. He would get claimed.

Young player with promise, on a cheap contract. He would get claimed.
- MJL

See, that,s where I beg to differ. His numbers were subpar even in junior.

Hell, a player like Mathieu Dandenault was a top scorer in Juniors. Remember what he looked like in the NHL?

Rinaldo is there to hit and fight. Period.

Something I don't see as a necessity and you value.

Case closed.

See, that,s where I beg to differ. His numbers were subpar even in junior.

Hell, a player like Mathieu Dandenault was a top scorer in Juniors. Remember what he looked like in the NHL?

Rinaldo is there to hit and fight. Period.

Something I don't see as a necessity and you value.

Case closed.
- Pecafan Fan

At this point his Junior numbers have zero to do with it. And yes, Rinaldo is in the NHL for his physical play. Which are qualities that team's see value in. And there is always room for improvement in a player.