They're not -- but the better teams know this and have already addressed it.

I looked into this after it was discussed in 2011, and here's what I saw:

In 2011, the Kings, with Drew Doughty and Slava Voynov, easily broke New Jersey's forecheck, went up 3-0 in the Cup finals, and closed them out.

In 2012, the Blackhawks, with Brent Seabrook and Michael Roszival, finally solved Boston's stifling defensive system -- and came back to win the Cup, after figuring out that the Bruins could be attacked on the forecheck on Zdeno Chara's backhand side. The Bruins themselves have righthanders Adam McQuaid, Johnny Boychuk and Dougie Hamilton.

The Penguins have Letang and Niskanen. The Blues have three guys -- Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk and Polak -- on their top three pairs.

So, yes, the Flyers aren't the only team with this issue. The problem is that most of the better teams in hockey have addressed it.
- AllInForFlyers

The thing is, the coach won't adjust the system enough to work without making a change...if they can't make a trade, they have to fix the breakout scheme

Entirely serious question.

Do you think the Flyers looked at the Pens of three years ago, decided they could not beat them with grinding players (eg Richards) so they rebuilt the team around the idea that they would be a skating attacking team. And, although the Flyers have been able match up nicely against the Pens, they now have more of a problem with the teams that can play that physical grinding style (Rangers, Devils, Bruins, Leafs, Senators).

These are no longer your father's Flyers. Their most aggressive and physical players do not have a lot of size.
- spatso

Without getting the panties into too much of a bunch.

I originally became a fan of this team because of a few things. Hard physical play, grit, and maybe not being the most talented team, but having a lot of heart and being hard working.

Ever since the first lockout into the "new nhl", I have found myself looking at wondering exactly what the identity here is. Far too much panic, drastic changes and changing the course. People talk about more of the same in regards to coaching, it just masks the bigger issue to me which I have noticed for far too long now.

Not enough consistency, and identity from the top. It trickles down.

P.S. Whatever though, its a pre-season game, and I'm not caring too much. I've been apathetic to this team for a while now. Never thought I'd say that, but it is what it is.

Ut oh... looks like Lavi's going to be the red headed step child this year....
- youarewrong

Perhaps, but it is frustrating, even in preseason, to see the same problems not being corrected. Those huge gaps between the forwards and D will make virtually impossible to be successful against teams that are positionally sound.

What kind of breakout did LA use against the Devils?
- MJL

It's the same breakout that Ottawa uses with Erik Karlsson: Play Drew Doughty half the game, then, because he's right-handed and mobile, he turns and gets the puck on the dump-ins from center ice, and he has the option to move it on his forehand to his defense partner or skate it out.

Improved mobility would help the Flyers, to be sure, on the bottom pairing. But make no mistake: This issue is why guys like P.K. Subban, Karlsson, Doughty, Shattenkirk, etc. are so valuable: They beat system forechecks like New Jersey uses, by themselves.

That is one case of an individual breakdown. I counted 5 instances, in the first period alone, of the Flyers getting the puck near their own blueline, and the gap between the puck carrier and forwards was so vast and filled with Devils that it was impossible to generate any speed in the transition game.

That's either systemic or a case of a coach who has no control of his team.
- Jsaquella

A new day.

A new "Lava has to go" discussion.

Ut oh... looks like Lavi's going to be the red headed step child this year....
- youarewrong

Its only because the team with new players is making the same mistakes over and over with no seeming adjustments from the coach.

The Devils have been doing the same things to the Flyers for the last 3 year. So have the Rangers. They have a smart, disciplined forecheck that creates traffic right in the middle of the gapping that occurs in the Flyers breakout and murders their transition game, and that's a large part of the troubles at 5 on 5.

The Flyers get too much space and teams that clog the neutral zone eat them alive, and have been doing so for 3 years

I'm not going to be dragged into this tiresome, ridiculous debate. It's fruitless and a total waste of time

Suffice it to say this is the pre-season and players are still learning each other and their assignments. The Devils are in mid-season from because their system hasn't changed much in the past twenty five years.

If we were to forecast now what will happen when the season begins because of these games, then lets not waste time and anoint Columbus and Toronto as division winners.
- 77rams

Exactly this. It's always the "system" and the coach that is the issue. I can tell you this right now...my son's U9 soccer team that I coach does the same thing. The d hangs back and the offense moves too far forward. I coach it and practice it until I am blue in the face for them to close that gap, but some players just don't get it. Like you say, it is early in the freaking preseason and we'll see what happens!

It's the same breakout that Ottawa uses with Erik Karlsson: Play Drew Doughty half the game, then, because he's right-handed and mobile, he turns and gets the puck on the dump-ins from center ice, and he has the option to move it on his forehand to his defense partner or skate it out.

Improved mobility would help the Flyers, to be sure, on the bottom pairing. But make no mistake: This issue is why guys like P.K. Subban, Karlsson, Doughty, Shattenkirk, etc. are so valuable: They beat system forechecks like New Jersey uses, by themselves.
- AllInForFlyers

perhaps, but in the 2nd period last night the Flyers shortened the gaps somewhat and just as importantly they turned up the intensity. All of a sudden the Devils forecheck looked pretty ineffective and the Flyers pretty much controlled play that period.

And while the Pens may have right handed dmen, their refusal to play better overall team D has cost them dearly the last couple of post seasons as well.
- BiggE

Certainly that's part of it -- I'm not saying that the only thing you need is right-handers -- but you do need them. Yes, team defense is important, gap control, the ability to keep your man in front of you -- make no mistake, the Flyers shouldn't have given up that second goal the way they did.

But still: The Flyers are at a disadvantage in this regard. They only gave up two goals last night, and 17 shots. The defense wasn't horrible after the first period.

But the inability to break the forecheck and go on offense -- it's a huge factor in why we can never seem to score against New Jersey and the Rangers.

Perhaps, but it is frustrating, even in preseason, to see the same problems not being corrected. Those huge gaps between the forwards and D will make virtually impossible to be successful against teams that are positionally sound.
- BiggE

And it is the same players that have been here since 2010, minus a couple and adding a couple. But of course it always falls on the coach...

I'm not going to be dragged into this tiresome, ridiculous debate. It's fruitless and a total waste of time

Suffice it to say this is the pre-season and players are still learning each other and their assignments. The Devils are in mid-season from because their system hasn't changed much in the past twenty five years.

If we were to forecast now what will happen when the season begins because of these games, then lets not waste time and anoint Columbus and Toronto as division winners.
- 77rams

It's not a ridiculous debate. The flaws in the way the Flyers player are clearly evident. Bill discussed them in his blog on the game today. It is the subject of the blog and is appropiate to discuss.

You're also incorrect in stating that the Devils system hasn't changed much in the past twenty five year. The Devils play a completely different system then the Devils did under past Coaches such as Lemaire. And have the Devils had the same players for the past 25 years? It's changed a great deal. The majority of Flers have played under htis Coach fora number of years now. I guess it helps to know, understand, and recognize Hockey systems.

Exactly this. It's always the "system" and the coach that is the issue. I can tell you this right now...my son's U9 soccer team that I coach does the same thing. The d hangs back and the offense moves too far forward. I coach it and practice it until I am blue in the face for them to close that gap, but some players just don't get it. Like you say, it is early in the freaking preseason and we'll see what happens!
- aantny88

I am a little bit in the middle. I don't think Lava is some stupid coach that doesn't notice these things. I do think he has probably tried to correct them to a degree but maybe the crew has gotten too comfortable so to speak.

If the 2nd is the case, then maybe management should also analyze a little better the players they choose to build the core around. Talent isn't everything.

The one thing, is that there is no sure fire system to win in this league. Many teams have won with an aggressive approach.

Perhaps, but it is frustrating, even in preseason, to see the same problems not being corrected. Those huge gaps between the forwards and D will make virtually impossible to be successful against teams that are positionally sound.
- BiggE

Let me say this. I put Lavi on blast when the Devils beat the Flyers and when the Rangers blanked them in the regular season. I blasted him because he was either unwilling or unable to make in game adjustments to beat these teams.

It is possible this system can still work, even with the gaps, because if there are those gaps, that means the Flyers are outnumbering the defenders if they get the puck. And last night's line-up on defense is not what we will see in the regular season. I will hope to see a puck mover on each pairing to be able to hit those outlet passes. If you noticed, when Streit was making those passes the Flyer had a decent amount of chances.

So if the defensive pairings look something like the below, I could see the system working.

Timonen-Coburn
Streit-Schenn
Grossmann-Gustefsson

You have a defender and passer on each line. The goalies need to set the puck up to the defensive guy, who gets the puck over to the passer, who springs the forwards on the rush. It is exactly what got them to the Finals in 2010.

perhaps, but in the 2nd period last night the Flyers shortened the gaps somewhat and just as importantly they turned up the intensity. All of a sudden the Devils forecheck looked pretty ineffective and the Flyers pretty much controlled play that period.
- BiggE

It also matters on keep-ins at the blue line -- it was also stated in 2011 that the Devils shape THEIR breakouts on attacking the left-handed defenseman who is playing the right side in their defensive zone, knowing that the keep-ins are harder on the backhand.

I just think is a huge factor in how we consistently can't score against teams like New Jersey and the Rangers.

I thought Giroux looked amazing and I never got all the love for him but after last night I am a believer Dude is unreal. Interesting you didn't mention that you guys where destroying us in the hit category Schneider has been amazing. I also thought the game wasn't near as boring as fans of other teams where saying it was.
- blizzzard

Flyers had a big edge in hits but that wasn't necessarily a positive, because the Devils simply had the puck a lot more than the Flyers (especially early in the game).

A new day.

A new "Lava has to go" discussion.


- 77rams

Well, if you change the players and get the same results for 3 + years, not sure why people want to avoid the elephant in the room.

There's going to be individual mistakes. But when teams that play a certain style dominate you for over 3 years, then its not just individual mistakes.

It's the same breakout that Ottawa uses with Erik Karlsson: Play Drew Doughty half the game, then, because he's right-handed and mobile, he turns and gets the puck on the dump-ins from center ice, and he has the option to move it on his forehand to his defense partner or skate it out.

Improved mobility would help the Flyers, to be sure, on the bottom pairing. But make no mistake: This issue is why guys like P.K. Subban, Karlsson, Doughty, Shattenkirk, etc. are so valuable: They beat system forechecks like New Jersey uses, by themselves.
- AllInForFlyers

It's a simple Center breakout with the Center coming deep for a short high percentage pass, with the other two forwards also back deep as options. The come back deep to support the defenseman, and they move up ice as a 5 man unit. Versus the Flyers stretch pass breakout, or rim the puck up the boards to a forward high in the zone. Flyers defenseman lack options with the puck.
A top puck mover like Subban or Doughty would surely help a great deal. But the Flyers are not dammed to be stuck with this issue without one. There are adjustements and solutions that can be made.

Lets change the course slightly.

Is it in any way possible. (Gasp).

That they simply get beat, because the other team is better? The other teams, that the Flyers continuously have trouble with are simply harder working?

I think this whole systems things is blown out of proportion.

It's not a ridiculous debate. The flaws in the way the Flyers player are clearly evident. Bill discussed them in his blog on the game today. It is the subject of the blog and is appropiate to discuss.

You're also incorrect in stating that the Devils system hasn't changed much in the past twenty five year. The Devils play a completely different system then the Devils did under past Coaches such as Lemaire. And have the Devils had the same players for the past 25 years? It's changed a great deal. The majority of Flers have played under htis Coach fora number of years now. I guess it helps to know, understand, and recognize Hockey systems.
- MJL

you must be a joy to live with.

And it is the same players that have been here since 2010, minus a couple and adding a couple. But of course it always falls on the coach...
- aantny88

There's 3 active players left from 2010.

Giroux, Timonen, Coburn

There's 3 active players left from 2010.

Giroux, Timonen, Coburn
- Jsaquella

that's amazing.

Lets change the course slightly.

Is it in any way possible. (Gasp).

That they simply get beat, because the other team is better? The other teams, that the Flyers continuously have trouble with are simply harder working?

I think this whole systems things is blown out of proportion.
- flyer_nutter

See, here's the scary thing about that:

If the Flyers got beat by a better team last night, they might as well fold the tent for the season, because that was pretty freaking close to a game-day roster for the regular season.

But does anybody realize who New Jersey DIDN'T use last night?

Adam Henrique. Michael Ryder. Jaromir Jagr. Dainus Zubrus. Andy Greene. Adam Larsson.

If we're already talking about getting beaten by a better team with regard to the squad New Jersey iced last night, this is going to be one hell of a long season.

There's 3 active players left from 2010.

Giroux, Timonen, Coburn
- Jsaquella

Jsaq, you hit the nail right on the head for me.

That statement to me speaks volumes. About many things.

And it is the same players that have been here since 2010, minus a couple and adding a couple. But of course it always falls on the coach...
- aantny88

Actually it does fall on the coach for the following reasons:

1. You pretty much can't trade 18 players

2. If the system itself is flawed, and I think Lavy's system is flawed when it comes to the breakout, then its the coaches fault.

3. If you think the system isn't flawed, then is it not the coaches responsibility to get the players to perform it properly? If they continue to make the same mistakes over and over, bench em, sit em, whatever it takes

I don't think that Laviolette is overall a bad coach. I do think though, that he doesn't stress defensive responsibility and positioning enough when it comes to his forwards and that is his Achilles heel.

It's not a ridiculous debate. The flaws in the way the Flyers player are clearly evident. Bill discussed them in his blog on the game today. It is the subject of the blog and is appropiate to discuss.

You're also incorrect in stating that the Devils system hasn't changed much in the past twenty five year. The Devils play a completely different system then the Devils did under past Coaches such as Lemaire. And have the Devils had the same players for the past 25 years? It's changed a great deal. The majority of Flers have played under htis Coach fora number of years now. I guess it helps to know, understand, and recognize Hockey systems.
- MJL