Wanna blog? Start your own hockey blog with My HockeyBuzz. Register for free today!
 
Forums :: Blog World :: Eklund: Bill Meltzer: Draft Data -- Risk/Reward of Picking Defensemen in 1st Round
Author Message
Kzak99
Calgary Flames
Location: Playa Tamarindo
Joined: 08.25.2011

Nov 30 @ 9:55 AM ET
But at the same time in 1993 Ottawa took Alexandre Daigle #1 and left Chris Pronger to go #2. It can work both ways.

And while Erik Johnson is always given as the example of "defencemen going first over all is a bust" Then there is the Alexandre Daigle, or the Patrik Stefan who can be said to be forwards that were first overall busts.

This is my opinion, but this past year it seems that the belief was that Nathan MacKinnon was exceedingly further ahead of the other players. Then I believe that both Florida and Tampa drafted more on positional needs. Florida really wanted a center to be able to play with Huberdeau and believes that Campbell, Gudbrandson, and Kulikov had then in a good position defensively. Tampa wanted a winger that will be able to replace the aging St. Louis and become that playmaker to continue to play with Stamkos. I believe that those two drafted for positional need and not best player overall.

The next side of it is the Oilers and Yakapov. Yakapov was without a doubt what appeared at the time to be the best player in the draft. But at the same time there was absolutely no way that the Oilers needed another skilled, smaller winger. It's obvious this season, regardless if Yakapov is struggling or not, that the Oilers needed a defencman. They should have drafted Ryan Murray (or flipped the pick with Columbus for an additional asset) and picked Murray. Murray could be in their lineup right now and giving them the defensive need that they definitely need.

I look at this as a Flames fan. potentially my team could be drafting first or second overall. They will be faced with this question when it comes to Aaron Ekblad. He is ranked as being 2nd overall or even by some as a 1B with him and Max Reinhart. So who should the Flames pick? I think that they should take Ekblad. I think they need to consider where they are in their rebuild and when they realistically expect to be pushing for the playoffs or more again. Even if they were to pick Reinhart, and say he is ready to play next season, is him in the Flames Lineup going to suddenly make them a Playoff contender? As much as it pains me to say, I don't see how it will make them significantly better. I also don't look at Reinhart as being significantly better than Ekblad (like say MacKinnon and Yakapov were over Jones and Murray)

So they should take Ekblad. Yes as a defenceman the trend is that he will take longer to develop. But by the time he is developed and ready to hopefully be that pillar #1 defenceman he is projected to be, it will coincide with when the team's rebuild is ready to contend again. Send him back to Junior. Let him develop and in a couple years he will be ready to impact in this league. A rebuilding team has to continue to look at the big picture and where they are in that rebuild. My opinion is that the Oilers are a year behind because they went for the "shiny" Yakapov instead of doing what they really needed to do.

Regardless with some perspective and looking at the bigger picture for the team, taking a defencman early can be the better thing for the team

- dal_johnson


I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the Flames draft strategy. We have a few good forwards coming through the system but not any top pairing dmen. As the author of the article implied, it is very difficult to acquire that kind of player through trade so it must be done through the draft. If Burkie has anything to say about the draft, then I think a big, 6'5, Southwestern Ontario dman is right up his alley.
TheGreat28
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Chadds Ford, PA
Joined: 06.20.2010

Nov 30 @ 11:02 AM ET
But at the same time in 1993 Ottawa took Alexandre Daigle #1 and left Chris Pronger to go #2. It can work both ways.

And while Erik Johnson is always given as the example of "defencemen going first over all is a bust" Then there is the Alexandre Daigle, or the Patrik Stefan who can be said to be forwards that were first overall busts.

This is my opinion, but this past year it seems that the belief was that Nathan MacKinnon was exceedingly further ahead of the other players. Then I believe that both Florida and Tampa drafted more on positional needs. Florida really wanted a center to be able to play with Huberdeau and believes that Campbell, Gudbrandson, and Kulikov had then in a good position defensively. Tampa wanted a winger that will be able to replace the aging St. Louis and become that playmaker to continue to play with Stamkos. I believe that those two drafted for positional need and not best player overall.

The next side of it is the Oilers and Yakapov. Yakapov was without a doubt what appeared at the time to be the best player in the draft. But at the same time there was absolutely no way that the Oilers needed another skilled, smaller winger. It's obvious this season, regardless if Yakapov is struggling or not, that the Oilers needed a defencman. They should have drafted Ryan Murray (or flipped the pick with Columbus for an additional asset) and picked Murray. Murray could be in their lineup right now and giving them the defensive need that they definitely need.

I look at this as a Flames fan. potentially my team could be drafting first or second overall. They will be faced with this question when it comes to Aaron Ekblad. He is ranked as being 2nd overall or even by some as a 1B with him and Max Reinhart. So who should the Flames pick? I think that they should take Ekblad. I think they need to consider where they are in their rebuild and when they realistically expect to be pushing for the playoffs or more again. Even if they were to pick Reinhart, and say he is ready to play next season, is him in the Flames Lineup going to suddenly make them a Playoff contender? As much as it pains me to say, I don't see how it will make them significantly better. I also don't look at Reinhart as being significantly better than Ekblad (like say MacKinnon and Yakapov were over Jones and Murray)

So they should take Ekblad. Yes as a defenceman the trend is that he will take longer to develop. But by the time he is developed and ready to hopefully be that pillar #1 defenceman he is projected to be, it will coincide with when the team's rebuild is ready to contend again. Send him back to Junior. Let him develop and in a couple years he will be ready to impact in this league. A rebuilding team has to continue to look at the big picture and where they are in that rebuild. My opinion is that the Oilers are a year behind because they went for the "shiny" Yakapov instead of doing what they really needed to do.

Regardless with some perspective and looking at the bigger picture for the team, taking a defencman early can be the better thing for the team

- dal_johnson



This is a GREAT post. And I agree with your conclusion on the Flames draft strategy.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Nov 30 @ 1:46 PM ET
First of all, I more than most appreciate the hard work involved with going backwards and listing draft selections.

I agree in essense with all of what you have stated.

So many factors attract NHL teams and their scouts that have them gravitate towards 17 -18 year old defenders and projecting them as the future answers.

But this "ain't the NHL your father watched" (that would be me, lol) in terms of speed reaction and pace.

Skating, quick sticks, strong on the puck when in possession, and pushing the pace are now much bigger components than being the big point shot and crease clearer.

All three major junior leagues have so many teams and though the best rise to the top, that still is a top that is so below the pro game because these best junior defenders you are viewing are make it look easy against other less skilled juniors.

But before I delve into the why some of these guys get selected where they do, I just want to go backwards with the fact there are also prospects that do not get selected at all.
They come is all shapes and rerasons, but let's just spent a couple seconds on a couple of guys who weren't drafted.

Let's starts with Brenden Dillion of the Dallas Stars.
I know many a website has him type cast as third pairing water mark, but there is a two sided game. He is really good and smart on the attack, point and has the size and nasty on defense, and the fact that he leapfrogged over high pick Jamie Oleksiak, 2nd rounders Patrik Nemeth & Ludvig Bystrom just makes it more exciting.
Dillon was a midget as his draft year approached, and then as draft eligibilty was expiring, he grew like 9 inches in from 5 foot two in a year, Seattle took a chance on him and it took all his seasons there to get his feet to catch up his body and adjust to the WHL.
Teams thought about picking him in the final third year of eligibility, but didn't…and he keep growing and getting thicker and improving his skating foot speed and agility.
I actually think he is their best all around defender, because he is solid in all phases PP, and PK.
So you can believe the experts or stick with my eyes…this kid is plenty good and a big part of their future.

You can always also find "lesser lights" who teams deemed as far to undersized whose natural abilities were always instinctive, but they did not have that height and girth, like Minny's Jared Spurgeon who can be lsited at 5' 9"-168, if you want to believe press guides.

But let's get back to your main point, "Why do teams take defenders when the do?"
Let first approach it from the "Cam Barker syndrome":
Even in elite international tournaments and Junior playoff and Memorial Cup battles, young defenders with high end offensive PP skills start to stand out and scouts project them as pros especially if they have size and reach. There is a confidence that they will fill in the parts that are missing in the weight room and on the ice.
But in fact the jump from being a junior defender to a pro defender is huge in terms of the skills of the opposition, but also at the recognition and pace they now must adapt to.

I wouldn't be uncomforatble saying that teams who have attempted "quick ascensions" to the NHL with young defenders have, in general, been confidence-breaking debacles that gain the teams and youngsters little in the way of long term improvement.

Even though I could easily compile a list via your list, there are more than enough Keaton Ellerby's to go around.

There is clearly an alure to the bigger junior defenders, mostly because if they fail to be possible top pairing defensemen, teams will also think they can be possible servicable lower end ones.

Team look past the fact they lose stick battles, lack NHL quick feet, or really haven't use their size to their advantage as the progress against the higher level elite.

And let's face it, human nature has NHL organizations look for that home run if they feel their organizational depth is lacking on defense.

They will many times by-pass the smaller steady positionally reliable dee-man, if they see this junior flashy big man.
They may also "stay-home" an draft from North America, because they are more comfortable with the possible draftees they have seen many times, and know through conversations…because their character should push through easier than a guy where there is a translation of their on ice thinking and the language makes for a little harder to read their IQs on their reactions in specific game situations.

I had Bob Pulford tell me that selection the French speaker, Ray Bourque, for the Blackhawks in 1979 might be too much of an cultural adjustement for the youngster when he selected Keith Brown instead. (Ironically the organization overturned this die when forward Denis Savard was available at pick three in 1980!)

So there are so many forces at play when a team gets to the podium on any round of the draft...and maybe the biggest one is the very fact that so many draft years are NOT filled with candidates that CAN fill NHL defense corps they way the need them to.

Each draft is unique into what it's crop brings and they are never going to yield the same amount of equal possibles.

On my part of www.Draftsite.com, I have a Re-Draft section staring with the 2000 draft up to 2009 (a little difficult to start assigning grades past this one, because there are many that are yet to display their impact as NHL regulars.)
Some of the Redraft years have enough notable prospects to warrant two rounds of redraft while others do not even show an enitre first round of thirty who warrant mentioning.

It is fun to look at which teams were able to cobble out the kids whose attributes do eventually help their team, in both big and little ways…. Bill Placzek
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Nov 30 @ 4:04 PM ET
Here is how the Blackhawks built their defense for their 2 cups:

2010
Keith (drafted 2002, 2nd rd #54)
Seabrook (drafted 2003, 1st rd #14)
Byfuglien (drafted 2003, 8th rd #245)
Hjalmarsson (drafted 2005, 4th rd #108)
Sopel (UFA)
Campbell (UFA)
Boyton (Trade)
Hendry (UFA)

2013
Keith (drafted 2002, 2nd rd #54)
Oduya (trade, 2nd & 3rd rd picks)
Hjalmarsson (drafted 2005, 4th rd #108)
Rozsival (UFA)
Seabrook (drafted 2003, 1st rd #14)
Leddy (trade, Barker)
Brookbank (UFA)

Chicago's history of drafting a dman in the 1st round since 2002:
2002 - Anton Babchuck, pick #21
2003 - Brent Seabrook, pick #14
2004 - Cam Barker, pick #3
2009 - Dylan Olsen, pick #28

- EastCoastOiler



As a lifelong Blackhawk fan who will not take your complimentary assessment as anything but kudos to the team and organization, I think it also has a lot to do with how you bring the one you drafted along. Of course someone knew how Oduya would be a perfect fit both style and what they would have to pay yo extend him Cap-wise.

Both Keith and Seabrook were not rushed and Seabrook was basically played in protected situations his first year, similar to the way Leddy not held to play big crucial minutes in the finals last year.

Yes Hjarlmarsson was a find and big Buff was a late round steal, although is better as a biug forward than a actually two way guy you count on to stop anyone.

They key here there was never a rush on the drafted dee-men, and there was smart evaluations on the acquired ones.

There also is an example of the reasoning with drfating Olsen in the first round: size, shot, some push back….but is you aren't stop/ start quick you don't play on the hawk dee. The pick was made projecting he could become a much better mover laterally and backwards.

and you cannot convince me that the organizational need for a bigger guy was behind this pick not only being a defenseman, but a big dee-man over a forward, when the likes of Ryan OReilly (and teams DID know OReilly was good) Alex Chiasson, Jakob Silfverberg, or defense prospects taken by teams: Vancouvers Stefan Elliot, Colorado's Ty Barrie Vancouvers Stefan Elliot, or Carolina's Brian Dumoulin….or Jesse Blacker.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Nov 30 @ 4:28 PM ET
But at the same time in 1993 Ottawa took Alexandre Daigle #1 and left Chris Pronger to go #2. It can work both ways.

And while Erik Johnson is always given as the example of "defencemen going first over all is a bust" Then there is the Alexandre Daigle, or the Patrik Stefan who can be said to be forwards that were first overall busts.


- dal_johnson


I think the dangle pick was one that was a popular fit for Ottawa IF the young French player could replicate his work in from the QMJHL and the issue there may have been one of giving the Q props that it was on a par with other two junior leagues in terms of over-all accountability when in fact it was at the time filled with smaller teams that played riverboat gambler style offense first styles.

That draft year, there were few Quebec league draftees who made any impact in the draft, although Sebastien Bordeleau made some noise and one way Eric Daze was a decent NHL scorer when the body wasn't put on him from the get - go.

It was simply a stinky Q draft class and Ottawa bought the hype.

Patrik Stefan was basically an import who playing in the IHL scored 15 goals over two seasons prior to his being drafted..and again it was a "big guy with potential" type pick.

I think attempting to compare these forwards with Erik Johnson is unfair, because Johnson's biggest weakness was failing to be able to shoulder the burden that he was supposed to walk in and be a top special teams player and and impact defenseman before EVER playing an NHL game, and again…he played ONE game in the AHL…so there was no bring him in slowly plan.

When teams draft early nowadays, they are almost expecting that they are going to caryy these young guys as on the job trainees, unless they are just not physically syrong enough that first September- October
TerryB
Nashville Predators
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Joined: 07.13.2010

Nov 30 @ 5:06 PM ET
Can you please go be a fan of some other team? Your posts are embarrasing the sober Predator fans.
- PoileRulezzzYo


Your Radulov jersey is an embarrassment to loyal Predator fans. Maybe you can be a fan of whatever lousy KHL team he plays for that no one else outside of Russia cares about.
wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: DraftSite com, IL
Joined: 05.14.2008

Nov 30 @ 5:21 PM ET

I look at this as a Flames fan. potentially my team could be drafting first or second overall. They will be faced with this question when it comes to Aaron Ekblad. He is ranked as being 2nd overall or even by some as a 1B with him and Max Reinhart. So who should the Flames pick? I think that they should take Ekblad. I think they need to consider where they are in their rebuild and when they realistically expect to be pushing for the playoffs or more again. Even if they were to pick Reinhart, and say he is ready to play next season, is him in the Flames Lineup going to suddenly make them a Playoff contender? I also don't look at Reinhart as being significantly better than Ekblad (like say MacKinnon and Yakapov were over Jones and Murray)

- dal_johnson


Firstly you can't compare this years drafts to any of the ones those players were drafted in.
This crop is far from close to those.

No one sees any forward or defenseman in 2014 and a can't miss upper impact player.
Teams are looking at Sam Reinhardt and Sam Bennett are NHLers who may have upsdie but may only have high water marks as second liners.
But that is no reason to not draft a ture centre like them because they also are serviceable as wingers.

To me this is about the Flames getting the maximum return and the quickest return.

The thing is i don't think you are goijng to see manys overpaying to move up in the order in this draft. You may get a better defensive prospect or wing in the early middle if they develop past the "top" guys that right now have the post positions.
This is an entire draft full of players with parts that still need to find their way into the players body or kids who are far from finished polished junior game players, so this is a wait wait hope hope group and it has a better chance of having the type of players who get mentioned becasue they weren't picked as early as their final production as NHLers who indicate.

And remember this: there have been years when the NHL has had drafts were few guys became accomplished impact players.
Take a look at the redraft of 2000:
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/redraft/2000/

The other thing is I have trouble after watching the Flames with thinking they will stink out th eplace worst than the sabres, and I think tallon's Flordia team may incur a few more subtractions to help put them in te running for a spot higher than Calgary.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3