i really do believe that those types of defenders are slowly, if not already, beginning to be phased out of the league. defense will become more about positioning, stick work, the ability to disrupt passing lanes, and then the ability to skate quickly towards loose pucks and accurately send it the other way.

those big lumberers to "clear the crease", are going to struggle to do those things.
- stayinthefnnet

Yeah, pretty much, especially in your top-4, where you can hardly afford a weak spot in puck-moving/transition anymore.

Yeah, pretty much, especially in your top-4, where you can hardly afford a weak spot in puck-moving/transition anymore.
- Tomahawk

It's a team game. No one individual has a positive or negative impact on the outcome of the game.

It's a team game. No one individual has a positive or negative impact on the outcome of the game.
- bradleyc4

Probably in a coop somewhere, looking for another pigeon to mate with.

/nods at Clode
- johndewar

It's a team game. No one individual has a positive or negative impact on the outcome of the game.
- bradleyc4

i really do believe that those types of defenders are slowly, if not already, beginning to be phased out of the league. defense will become more about positioning, stick work, the ability to disrupt passing lanes, and then the ability to skate quickly towards loose pucks and accurately send it the other way.

those big lumberers to "clear the crease", are going to struggle to do those things.
- stayinthefnnet

There will always be teams that have them, much like team carry enforcers even now.

But they are phasing out. Big guys who can skate will always be valuable. Big guys who can't will eventually fade away or become so undervalued, that guys like Murray or Grossmann will end up as 6/7 guys for matchups when you need extra snarl.

It's a team game. No one individual has a positive or negative impact on the outcome of the game.
- bradleyc4

If that's what you think is meant by it's a team game. It's been explained multiple times about how role playing defenseman such as Grossmann still have a place in today's game. And how with solid support, and solid team play, behind them, those role playing defenseman can still be effective, in the right roles.

If that's what you think is meant by it's a team game. It's been explained multiple times about how role playing defenseman such as Grossmann still have a place in today's game. And how with solid support, and solid team play, behind them, those role playing defenseman can still be effective, in the right roles.
- MJL

I want players who prop up the team; not players who need the team to prop them up.

There will always be teams that have them, much like team carry enforcers even now.

But they are phasing out. Big guys who can skate will always be valuable. Big guys who can't will eventually fade away or become so undervalued, that guys like Murray or Grossmann will end up as 6/7 guys for matchups when you need extra snarl.
- Jsaquella

I doubt that will be the case. Because there will always be icetime for the PK, and you still have to have to defend. There is no doubt that having players that can handle both the skating, passing game and the physical game, are paramount to anchor your defense. But there will always be a need for players like Grossmann in the League, as role players.

Everyone wants Leino's agent
- FlyersGrace

He is now an assistant GM with Columbus.

I want players who prop up the team; not players who need the team to prop them up.
- bradleyc4

Every team has role players. And I don't think that is an accurate characterization.

I doubt that will be the case. Because there will always be icetime for the PK, and you still have to have to defend. There is no doubt that having players that can handle both the skating, passing game and the physical game, are paramount to anchor your defense. But there will always be a need for players like Grossmann in the League, as role players.
- MJL

I agree, only in that I believe trends in hockey (and other sports) are cyclical. The trend now is for speed and puck-moving ability. Once that is exploited, there will be a new trend - which could very well include non-skating behemoths.

And there will always be old-school GMs/coaches who think having enforcers or crease-clearers is a necessity.

I want players who prop up the team; not players who need the team to prop them up.
- bradleyc4

Guys with net front presence are always going to be valuable. You need a guy on every defensive pairing who is able to take the man in front of the net. Who doesn't allow rebounds, deflection and guys to keep whacking away at your goalie.

Yeah, if you have a guy who is big, can skate, and pass, then of course you use him instead. But those guys are the pietrangelos, shattenkirks, OEL's of the league. Everyone cant do that.

Every team has role players. And I don't think that is an accurate characterization.
- MJL

Teams have role players because they can't afford a lineup of all-stars and because there's only so much talent to go around.

I agree, only in that I believe trends in hockey (and other sports) are cyclical. The trend now is for speed and puck-moving ability. Once that is exploited, there will be a new trend - which could very well include non-skating behemoths.

And there will always be old-school GMs/coaches who think having enforcers or crease-clearers is a necessity.
- bradleyc4

That's what I'm saying.

But more and more teams in the league are carrying one or none of those guys every year, or if they do, it's a guy like Hannan or Erskine, who plays a limited role.

Guess some people don't understand that a 6th or 7th defenseman is a role player.

(frank)ing (frank)

That's what I'm saying.

But more and more teams in the league are carrying one or none of those guys every year, or if they do, it's a guy like Hannan or Erskine, who plays a limited role.

Guess some people don't understand that a 6th or 7th defenseman is a role player.
- Jsaquella

Teams have role players because they can't afford a lineup of all-stars and because there's only so much talent to go around.
- bradleyc4

Teams have role players because you need face off and penalty killing specialists. You need physical, shot blocking defenseman. You need defensive checking forwards. And more importantly, you need a team. You know what a defense core of smooth skating passing offensive defenseman would be? Not a very good defense. This is another issue with the analytics community. They think the game has changed. It hasn't. The same needs are there, in the game. Teams will always need role players.

(frank)ing (frank)
- hogweed

this sounds like something i would post. care to elaborate?

That's what I'm saying.

But more and more teams in the league are carrying one or none of those guys every year, or if they do, it's a guy like Hannan or Erskine, who plays a limited role.

Guess some people don't understand that a 6th or 7th defenseman is a role player.
- Jsaquella

I think it's more that some people don't understand that a mix of defenseman is needed on a team. And that defending is just as important as moving the puck and racking up good possession numbers.

Teams have role players because you need face off and penalty killing specialists. You need physical, shot blocking defenseman. You need defensive checking forwards. And more importantly, you need a team. You know what a defense core of smooth skating passing offensive defenseman would be? Not a very good defense. This is another issue with the analytics community. They think the game has changed. It hasn't. The same needs are there, in the game. Teams will always need role players.
- MJL

Only big change in the game is the role of the fourth line seems to be changing into something more than a bunch of face punchers.

Teams have role players because you need face off and penalty killing specialists. You need physical, shot blocking defenseman. You need defensive checking forwards. And more importantly, you need a team. You know what a defense core of smooth skating passing offensive defenseman would be? Not a very good defense. This is another issue with the analytics community. They think the game has changed. It hasn't. The same needs are there, in the game. Teams will always need role players.
- MJL

Teams don't need role players, they're forced to mine them for their one or two traits in order to complete a roster.

Teams have role players because you need face off and penalty killing specialists. You need physical, shot blocking defenseman. You need defensive checking forwards. And more importantly, you need a team. You know what a defense core of smooth skating passing offensive defenseman would be? Not a very good defense. This is another issue with the analytics community. They think the game has changed. It hasn't. The same needs are there, in the game. Teams will always need role players.
- MJL

And the game is always evolving.

But, in terms of analytics (which you're once again misrepresenting), it's a not about a change in the game. It's a change in how people view the game. It's about finding statistical advantages to increase the probability of winning a game.

Teams don't need role players, they're forced to mine them for their one or two traits in order to complete a roster.
- bradleyc4

Not true. They absolutely need role players. They're on the roster because you need players like that in those roles, who do what they do well. Role players are very important players on a team, and they contribute to winning.

It you don't think statistical analysis is used in all facets of life -- war, space exploration, economics, everything -- you should consider opening your eyes a little more.