why would Miller go to the Ducks? They'll run with Andersen/Gibson, I'd think.
- wilsonecho91

they've got their goalies. the ducks are not an option for miller. he could end up staying in st. louis, too.

No need to visit a new thread to read the same moronic denials about stats and cherry picking a few outliers to defend your opinions
- Jsaquella

All of my opinions on analytics can not only be supported by numerous articles from credible sources, some by the developers of these stats themselves, but were also formed by reading a lot of the information that is out there, on analytics in sports.

i don't think he's "all about analytics", but is going to embrace and utilize them more than what's been done here in the past. this is a good thing. he's probably leaning to moving him....the question is what will he be able to get in return? if it's nothing, we might have to keep him another year and hope he rebounds.
- hammarby31

I honestly think they'll take what they can get for Vinny. Keeping him around creates issues with drawing up your lines and also ties up quite a bit of money. He came here as a UFA so even if they were somehow only offered a 4th rounder for him it doesnt really hurt all that much.

At the end of the day he hampers the 2nd line and isnt even in consideration for the 1st or 3rd. That leaves him centering the 4th line at an extremely high cost. I think they'll take what they can get.

why would Miller go to the Ducks? They'll run with Andersen/Gibson, I'd think.
- wilsonecho91

Miller wants to go to Anaheim and that is why he has not resigned with the Blues. If the Ducks make Miller an offer on July 01 it is a done deal. Andersen to back up, Gibson to AHL for seasoning (goalie of the future) and Hiller goes to Free Agency. You heard it here first, lol.

I know I shouldn't get involved, but he never said those GMs used those stats to win Stanley Cups. He said those GMs won Stanley Cups and admitted to using those stats. He never said there was a causal relationship between the 2 (i.e. that the stats led directly to the Cups). Big difference when you change a few words around.
- five4fighting10

Or when you cherry pick one word.

No, Chicago, Boston and LA do not use only analytics to evaluate players, nobody is saying that they are. However, they all admit to using analytics as a key part of their process to evaluate players.

All three of those teams are possession minded.

Darryl Sutter recently said, "“The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone they they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play"

Dave Tippett talks about the importance of possession he realized in the mid-1990's working in the old IHL: "I'll give you an example," Tippett said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

Dismissing analytics as misused is a dodge. It's not the end all be all of evaluation, and nobody is saying it is.

i don't think he's "all about analytics", but is going to embrace and utilize them more than what's been done here in the past. this is a good thing. he's probably leaning to moving him....the question is what will he be able to get in return? if it's nothing, we might have to keep him another year and hope he rebounds.
- hammarby31

It is a good thing. They should use every valuable tool available to them. I like everything Hextall had to say. But of course, easier said then done. There will still be pressure to win.

they've got their goalies. the ducks are not an option for miller. he could end up staying in st. louis, too.
- hammarby31

Tell me why Miller has not resigned despite a long term big buck offer from the Blues, he wants to see if the Ducks can make it happen, seriously.

I honestly think they'll take what they can get for Vinny. Keeping him around creates issues with drawing up your lines and also ties up quite a bit of money. He came here as a UFA so even if they were somehow only offered a 4th rounder for him it doesnt really hurt all that much.

At the end of the day he hampers the 2nd line and isnt even in consideration for the 1st or 3rd. That leaves him centering the 4th line at an extremely high cost. I think they'll take what they can get.
- hereticpride

yeah, i see this too. i just don't want them giving up picks and eating money. if they dump him for a late rounder and are off the $ hook, fine by me.

Or when you cherry pick one word.

No, Chicago, Boston and LA do not use only analytics to evaluate players, nobody is saying that they are. However, they all admit to using analytics as a key part of their process to evaluate players.

All three of those teams are possession minded.

Darryl Sutter recently said, "“The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone they they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play"

Dave Tippett talks about the importance of possession he realized in the mid-1990's working in the old IHL: "I'll give you an example," Tippett said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

Dismissing analytics as misused is a dodge. It's not the end all be all of evaluation, and nobody is saying it is.
- Jsaquella

Analytically speaking lets analyse and evalulate, just hope somebody remembers to bring the puck.

Or when you cherry pick one word.

No, Chicago, Boston and LA do not use only analytics to evaluate players, nobody is saying that they are. However, they all admit to using analytics as a key part of their process to evaluate players.

All three of those teams are possession minded.

Darryl Sutter recently said, "“The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone they they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play"

Dave Tippett talks about the importance of possession he realized in the mid-1990's working in the old IHL: "I'll give you an example," Tippett said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

Dismissing analytics as misused is a dodge. It's not the end all be all of evaluation, and nobody is saying it is.
- Jsaquella

Possession is not anything new in Hockey. The Soviet Red Army teams of the 60-70's believed in regroups in their own end instead of dumping the puck in, and giving it up, and having to chase it down again.

The issue is not teams misusing them, so quoting teams that reference them, as proof that they exist, or are used, doesn't address the issue.

It's fans misuse of them that is the issue. And using them out of context, and misusing them to label a player a good player or a bad player. Quotes from GM's don't address that.

Tell me why Miller has not resigned despite a long term big buck offer from the Blues, he wants to see if the Ducks can make it happen, seriously.
- flyerdude17

he might. i figured they're going to run with andersen/gibson and move hiller. i suppose it's possible they're looking for a vet #1 and have andersen continue to back up with gibson being groomed in the ahl.

that said, what's the rush for miller to sign right now? he's got plenty of time.

yeah, i see this too. i just want them giving up picks and eating money. if they dump him for a late rounder and are off the $ hook, fine by me.
- hammarby31

Vinny will not be back. Teams are looking for centers and Vinny does not like playing wing or centering the 4th line. He will get traded for a dman or picks. Flyers just want out and it will not take much in my opinion.

Possession is not anything new in Hockey. The Soviet Red Army teams of the 60-70's believed in regroups in their own end instead of dumping the puck in, and giving it up, and having to chase it down again.

The issue is not teams misusing them, so quoting teams that reference them, as proof that they exist, or are used, doesn't address the issue.

It's fans misuse of them that is the issue. And using them out of context, and misusing them to label a player a good player or a bad player. Quotes from GM's don't address that.
- MJL

why do you care if fans misuse them? and misusing them is your opinion. they're not making decisions and running hockey clubs, so what's the difference? can't we all just let this horse stay dead in peace?

yeah, i see this too. i just want them giving up picks and eating money. if they dump him for a late rounder and are off the $ hook, fine by me.
- hammarby31

I dont see why they couldnt get a mid round pick out of the Leafs for him. He would probably waive to go there as well. The Isles could always be an option as well.

All of my opinions on analytics can not only be supported by numerous articles from credible sources, some by the developers of these stats themselves, but were also formed by reading a lot of the information that is out there, on analytics in sports.
- MJL

And yet you continuously misrepresent what stats proponents say, by acting as if they believe that stats should be the primary tool for player evaluation. Nobody has said that they are anything more than a useful tool, and you flip flop from agreeing, to posting Marsh and Stewie trashing the stats, to saying that they're being mis-used.

All anyone has said is they can be a valuable tool. A hammer can be a valuable tool, but if you use it to fix a teapot, it's worthless. Stats proponents understand that.

They understand that you need a mix of players, but they place a higher value on those who can skate and be more than one dimensional shot blockers.

yeah, i see this too. i just want them giving up picks and eating money. if they dump him for a late rounder and are off the $ hook, fine by me.
- hammarby31

While not ideal, if they determine that Lecavalier is not a fit here, and they have to eat a little money. And the Cap space gained is used to improve the team, I'm okay with that. Not ideal, but it's better then keeping a player who is not a fit.

that i do. quite lovely. the weather rules, and i can routinely drive 90+ and not worry about it.
- hammarby31

usually....i got pulled over twice in about 1500 feet outside of cuba (rt 550) on the way back from durango. got stopped, got a ticket, pulled out, repeat....my girlfriend was cracking up

Vinny will not be back. Teams are looking for centers and Vinny does not like playing wing or centering the 4th line. He will get traded for a dman or picks. Flyers just want out and it will not take much in my opinion.
- flyerdude17

that was "don't want them giving up picks/$".

you could be right. as i said, i just don't want the flyers having to pay the price for a bad contract.

usually....i got pulled over twice in about 1500 feet outside of cuba (rt 550) on the way back from durango. got stopped, got a ticket, pulled out, repeat....my girlfriend was cracking up
- hogweed

i don't do it blindly...i keep aware and do it where i think i'll be ok. watch...i'll get a (frank)ing ticket tomorrow.

Possession is not anything new in Hockey. The Soviet Red Army teams of the 60-70's believed in regroups in their own end instead of dumping the puck in, and giving it up, and having to chase it down again.

The issue is not teams misusing them, so quoting teams that reference them, as proof that they exist, or are used, doesn't address the issue.

It's fans misuse of them that is the issue. And using them out of context, and misusing them to label a player a good player or a bad player. Quotes from GM's don't address that.
- MJL

Again, they are a tool. They are not the only tool. Nobody has used them out of context.

I dont see why they couldnt get a mid round pick out of the Leafs for him. He would probably waive to go there as well. The Isles could always be an option as well.
- hereticpride

entirely possible.

he might. i figured they're going to run with andersen/gibson and move hiller. i suppose it's possible they're looking for a vet #1 and have andersen continue to back up with gibson being groomed in the ahl.

that said, what's the rush for miller to sign right now? he's got plenty of time.
- hammarby31

Well Miller has been offered term and dollars so why not do it now if that is where he wants to be, fact is it is his second choice. His wife being a movie star is in California so Anaheim or San Jose are his first choices. Hiller is an ufa and will not be back. Niemi sucked but is under contract but a change may be coming in SJ anyway. Niemi could be traded and Miller brought in, however I still say it is Anaheim for Miller.

I dont see why they couldnt get a mid round pick out of the Leafs for him. He would probably waive to go there as well. The Isles could always be an option as well.
- hereticpride

Four years left at $4.5mm, with an uncertain Canadian dollar that great affects the cap's rise and fall, plus various injuries that have limited his effectiveness in each of the last 4 years

Today's thread: putting the anal in analytics

While not ideal, if they determine that Lecavalier is not a fit here, and they have to eat a little money. And the Cap space gained is used to improve the team, I'm okay with that. Not ideal, but it's better then keeping a player who is not a fit.
- MJL

hextall has to decide where the line is. then again, the nashville thing could work out nicely if lava really wants him. might get a better return from someone who covets the player instead of a team looking just to fill a spot or for a reclamation project.