Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Kerr vs. LeClair, Quick Hits

I actually saw Burke play with Mariners when they came to Philly to play the Firebirds at the Civic Center. Young guy with a full head of red hair and mustache, in the days before everyone wore helmets

If I can have 1 of either LeClair or Kerr, in their primes, on the team right now, I take Kerr. Kerr was the total package, except for skating. With medicine of today, Kerr might not be as often injured and out. Kerr too me was a better point producer in the playoffs as well. I take Kerr by a hair

LeClair was great for the 96 World Cup and 02 Olympic teams. 12 goals in 13 games combining the two tournaments. He was a top player with or without Lindros centering. Kerr didn't get those kinds of opportunities of course, but no one should doubt LeClair was an elite player at his peak.

LeClair was great for the 96 World Cup and 02 Olympic teams. 12 goals in 13 games combining the two tournaments. He was a top player with or without Lindros centering. Kerr didn't get those kinds of opportunities of course, but no one should doubt LeClair was an elite player at his peak.
- fls13

LeClair even carried Chris Gratton to respectability for two months during the 1997-98 season, when he was separated from Lindros. However, LeClair's production rate was markedly lower when Anatoli Semenov centered the top line in an injured Lindros' absence in 1995-96 and, for whatever reason, he never had much chemistry when Rod Brind'Amour was moved up. LeClair did fine when Dale Hawerchuk was there.

BTW, Mikael Renberg's production pre-abdominal tear was virtually identical regardless of whether Lindros, Brind'Amour, Semenov or even Slava Butsayev (three weeks during Renberg's rookie year) was his center.

LeClair even carried Chris Gratton to respectability for two months during the 1997-98 season, when he was separated from Lindros. However, LeClair's production rate was markedly lower when Anatoli Semenov centered the top line in an injured Lindros' absence in 1995-96 and, for whatever reason, he never had much chemistry when Rod Brind'Amour was moved up. LeClair did fine when Dale Hawerchuk was there.

BTW, Mikael Renberg's production pre-abdominal tear was virtually identical regardless of whether Lindros, Brind'Amour, Semenov or even Slava Butsayev (three weeks during Renberg's rookie year) was his center.
- bmeltzer

Gratton had a decent first year here even as he was getting ripped all the way through it. I thought it was unfair. He wasn't the man the way he was in TB but matched the previous year's point totals, was a + player. That contract raised expectations through the roof. His second year his game fell apart. He just stopped shooting the puck and was dealt back to TB. He ended up having a really solid career and he certainly got paid for his time in Philly.

It would be great if Burke would take Rinaldo off our hands.

If I can have 1 of either LeClair or Kerr, in their primes, on the team right now, I take Kerr. Kerr was the total package, except for skating. With medicine of today, Kerr might not be as often injured and out. Kerr too me was a better point producer in the playoffs as well. I take Kerr by a hair
- twpguy

Both of these guys were dominant and I was able too see more of LeClair due to NHL cable TV packages becoming more available in early 90's
Playing with Lindros over a full season would increase most players production. The Legion of Doom was amazing to watch.
Kerr just seemed to get it done every game and every PP. He was a different player and one of the first guys I can remember that would just stand in front and bang in the goals.

IMO, If he played the 87 finals the Flyers would have beat the Oilers

Both of these guys were dominant and I was able too see more of LeClair due to NHL cable TV packages becoming more available in early 90's
Playing with Lindros over a full season would increase most players production. The Legion of Doom was amazing to watch.
Kerr just seemed to get it done every game and every PP. He was a different player and one of the first guys I can remember that would just stand in front and bang in the goals.

IMO, If he played the 87 finals the Flyers would have beat the Oilers
- 3flyerkids

I agree with that, Kerr was their best forward. He was much better at lugging the puck that a lot of people give him credit for. He could beat a dman one on one. He was also good at getting open so he could take and make all those shots.

Gratton had a decent first year here even as he was getting ripped all the way through it. I thought it was unfair. He wasn't the man the way he was in TB but matched the previous year's point totals, was a + player. That contract raised expectations through the roof. His second year his game fell apart. He just stopped shooting the puck and was dealt back to TB. He ended up having a really solid career and he certainly got paid for his time in Philly.
- fls13

Gratton did zero his first month-plus here after scoring a goal in his Flyers debut. Cashman then put LeClair on his line for two months, and Gratton's totals picked up for awhile.

Gratton's 22 goals and 62 points for his first season in Philly were OK numbers but neither justified the contract nor accounted for a variety of problems (none of them his fault) that it created:

1) It forced Brind'Amour to split the season between left wing (in the top six) and third-line center in a shutdown role. He was unhappy with it, although he eventually channeled it into a big season that convinced the Flyers to move Gratton to LW -- which made Gratton unhappy and very unproductive -- the next season.

2) Dainius Zubrus was forced into a first-line RW role he wasn't ready to play at age 19. Then Trent Klatt moved into the role. Either which way, it was a step backward from what Renberg had provided at even at less-than-full health.

3) Stats Inc. 1998-99 Hockey Annual listed Gratton as the player who picked up the most "garbage time" points in the NHL during the 1997-98 season, and he had a big fat zero in how they defined their "clutch goals" category. You can quibble over the criteria they used but the point is that when the Flyers desperately needed someone to step up, Gratton was rarely the one who did -- and that was with Lindros, LeClair and Brind'Amour getting primary defensive attention.

Basically, the Flyers never had a need for Gratton in the first place. They already had their 1-2 punch in the middle with Lindros and Brind'Amour and Joel Otto (albeit not healthy and declining rapidly by 1997-98) had been a strong third-line center for the two previous seasons.

The real lesson from the whole Gratton situation was that just because the Flyers -- in a non-cap era -- could afford the player, it didn't mean that he was what the team actually needed. They needed to upgrade the goaltending and defense rather than getting another big center.

Kerr was deadly in front of the net.....his ability to use his large frame to get his stick and hands free was uncanny. He was just to strong for guys. To this day, he's my favorite Flyer after Clarke.......Leclair really hit another gear after getting to philly, he too used his size to his advantage in tight but not at the level of Kerr.....But Leclair could also prove deadly off the rush, something Kerr wasn't as prolific at....to me it's either or. Both could just dominate and control in the o zone.
Both had wonderful careers .....great comparison.

The real lesson from the whole Gratton situation was that just because the Flyers -- in a non-cap era -- could afford the player, it didn't mean that he was what the team actually needed. They needed to upgrade the goaltending and defense rather than getting another big center.
- bmeltzer

I wouldn't argue with that at all but you can't blame Gratton for taking the crazy offer he got. That off season they did go out and add Luke Richardson as well and he struggled mightily for awhile but eventually got it together and was a solid contributor. Getting paired with Dykhuis seemed to really kill Richardson's game. When they traded for McGillis, Luke's game shaped back up. Bad pairings can really hurt an ordinarily good dman. Getting paired with Fred Meyer really hurt Derian Hatcher's game.

I wouldn't argue with that at all but you can't blame Gratton for taking the crazy offer he got. That off season they did go out and add Luke Richardson as well and he struggled mightily for awhile but eventually got it together and was a solid contributor. Getting paired with Dykhuis seemed to really kill Richardson's game. When they traded for McGillis, Luke's game shaped back up. Bad pairings can really hurt an ordinarily good dman. Getting paired with Fred Meyer really hurt Derian Hatcher's game.
- fls13

I don't think anyone's blaming Gratton for taking the offer.

He eventual went on to have a decent career as a depth center, but never really came close to matching that 30 goal season with the Bolts.

Definitely blame the Flyers for signing him and not really having a role for him. They wanted him to be Lindros insurance or give them two big bodies at 1C & 2C, but he wasn't as talented as Lindros or Brind'Amour.

he wasn't as talented as Lindros or Brind'Amour.
- Jsaquella

No, not even close. He did end up topping 1000 games and was a half point a game guy for a big chunk of that. I think some folks projected a further upside for him that wasn't there. I remember Clarke saying Cashman had really talked him up. You have to be careful projecting scoring numbers for guys. Sometimes that early spurt is all there is and they settle back down. The contract weighed him down though. Bill is right about the bad start his first year but he did pick it up as the season went on. The second year his game tanked and it was best to make the change. Hopefully, he invested wisely and is living well.

I do remember later in his career as a UFA, a lot of folks, me included, thought he'd be a good fit coming back . . . . two-way center with size and some offense. Still, his first go round he took a lot of abuse because of his deal.

give me one player who, when healthy, was a scoring machine; who could score many different ways from many different areas of the ice; who needed to be denied specific areas in the offensive zone; who had a deadly shot; who came through in the biggest games...iow, name me the most natural goal scorer who ever played significant time w/ the Flyers.

Leclair and Kerr come to mind as well as MacLeish and Leach, Lindros, Carter...

you pick....

No, not even close. He did end up topping 1000 games and was a half point a game guy for a big chunk of that. I think some folks projected a further upside for him that wasn't there. I remember Clarke saying Cashman had really talked him up. You have to be careful projecting scoring numbers for guys. Sometimes that early spurt is all there is and they settle back down. The contract weighed him down though. Bill is right about the bad start his first year but he did pick it up as the season went on. The second year his game tanked and it was best to make the change. Hopefully, he invested wisely and is living well.

I do remember later in his career as a UFA, a lot of folks, me included, thought he'd be a good fit coming back . . . . two-way center with size and some offense. Still, his first go round he took a lot of abuse because of his deal.
- fls13

Of course, when you sign a deal paying $10mm in a year, coming off a 30 goal season, and then struggle badly out of the gate and then play downright awful in the second season of the deal, people will not be happy with the player.

I also agree with Bill that Gratton did not fit during his Flyers time. He was ineffective at wing, forced a better player in Brind'Amour out of position and was just the Flyers coveting a big guy who had a good year and prioritizing him over more pressing needs.

Not really blaming him for most of that, but I do recall him having a good stretch during that second half of the first season, and being bad otherwise.

give me one player who, when healthy, was a scoring machine; who could score many different ways from many different areas of the ice; who needed to be denied specific areas in the offensive zone; who had a deadly shot; who came through in the biggest games...iow, name me the most natural goal scorer who ever played significant time w/ the Flyers.

Leclair and Kerr come to mind as well as MacLeish and Leach, Lindros, Carter...

you pick....
- isaiah520

Reggie Leach is probably the most natural goal scorer they have had. Barber, was a good goal scorer, too

Of course, when you sign a deal paying $10mm in a year, coming off a 30 goal season, and then struggle badly out of the gate and then play downright awful in the second season of the deal, people will not be happy with the player.

I also agree with Bill that Gratton did not fit during his Flyers time. He was ineffective at wing, forced a better player in Brind'Amour out of position and was just the Flyers coveting a big guy who had a good year and prioritizing him over more pressing needs.

Not really blaming him for most of that, but I do recall him having a good stretch during that second half of the first season, and being bad otherwise.
- Jsaquella

I remember not liking the Gratton deal at the time and nothing really changed my mind about that. It messed up what was a good mix up front. Still, Luke Richardson had a really tough time here too at first. He was waived at one point and no one picked him up. Eventually, he became a real fan favorite and rightfully so.

Reggie Leach is probably the most natural goal scorer they have had. Barber, was a good goal scorer, too
- Jsaquella

Leach or Kerr, hard to separate the two for me. What Leach did as Conn Smythe winner still amazes.

I remember not liking the Gratton deal at the time and nothing really changed my mind about that. It messed up what was a good mix up front. Still, Luke Richardson had a really tough time here too at first. He was waived at one point and no one picked him up. Eventually, he became a real fan favorite and rightfully so.
- fls13

True, but Richardson was sold as a solid, tough defenseman. Gratton was sold as a monster 1-2 punch with Lindros. Again, not his fault, but he never really lived up to the 3rd overall pick hype anywhere

LeClair was great for the 96 World Cup and 02 Olympic teams. 12 goals in 13 games combining the two tournaments. He was a top player with or without Lindros centering. Kerr didn't get those kinds of opportunities of course, but no one should doubt LeClair was an elite player at his peak.
- fls13

Kerr was before my time but the most memorable LeClair lines for me would be LeClair and Lindros playing with anyone on right wing or Recchi playing opposite LeClair with anyone centering them. When you bring up the 2002 Olympics, LeClair-Modano-Hull was an amazing line.

True, but Richardson was sold as a solid, tough defenseman. Gratton was sold as a monster 1-2 punch with Lindros. Again, not his fault, but he never really lived up to the 3rd overall pick hype anywhere
- Jsaquella

A lot of players were over sold back then. Daigle, Falloon, Lecavalier maybe, Dan McGillis who I actually liked but not for what we gave up for him.

give me one player who, when healthy, was a scoring machine; who could score many different ways from many different areas of the ice; who needed to be denied specific areas in the offensive zone; who had a deadly shot; who came through in the biggest games...iow, name me the most natural goal scorer who ever played significant time w/ the Flyers.

Leclair and Kerr come to mind as well as MacLeish and Leach, Lindros, Carter...

you pick....
- isaiah520

Regarding Lindros, Leclair, Kerr, MacLeish, Leach, and Barber, I have to rank in order:

1- Lindros
2- Barber
3- Kerr
4- Leclair
5- Leach
6- MacLeish

Edit * I thought I read Barber, but you stated Carter *

A lot of players were over sold back then. Daigle, Falloon, Lecavalier maybe, Dan McGillis who I actually liked but not for what we gave up for him.
- SuperSchennBros

I think the feeling is often, "if this guy did x with a crappy team, he'll do x++ with the Flyers." That often doesn't happen.

I think worse than the Gratton move was moving Vinny Prospal in the Daigle package.

Regarding Lindros, Leclair, Kerr, MacLeish, Leach, and Barber, I have to rank in order:

1- Lindros
2- Barber
3- Kerr
4- Leclair
5- Leach
6- MacLeish

Edit * I thought I read Barber, but you stated Carter *
- 77rams

was really focused just on goal scoring. Barber a better all around player than Carter.