Well, the end if kind of my point. He's made 3 moves, really. One points to a better player analytically (Umberger > Hartnell), one points the other way (Rinaldo), and one is a player who will struggle to see NHL time (White). I don't think there's enough of a sample pool to say either he does or does not.

Also, not all roster moves should be driven simply by analytics, otherwise every NHL roster would look more or less the same, and no one would want to touch players like Ryan Suter or Shea Weber because of their negative Corsi Rel. numbers.
- jmatchett383

I'm not saying all roster moves should be driven only by analytics. That's just as foolish as writing off analytics, IMO. And Corsi Rel is only as good as the context you put around it. On the surface, Suter and Weber look to be liabilities, but, digging deeper, you see that they are not at all. Like I said, analytics are a tool and a tool is useless if a person doesn't know how to use it. And you can't build a house with only a hammer.

I'm not saying all roster moves should be driven only by analytics. That's just as foolish as writing off analytics, IMO. And Corsi Rel is only as good as the context you put around it. On the surface, Suter and Weber look to be liabilities, but, digging deeper, you see that they are not at all. Like I said, analytics are a tool and a tool is useless if a person doesn't know how to use it. And you can't build a house with only a hammer.
- NickTheKid87

And you're saying, based solely on the Rinaldo/White signings, that Hextall clearly doesn't use/know how to use analytics? Because if not, I'm really not following you, and if you are saying that, I'm just going to disagree.

And we are talking about analytics...

ZZZZZZZZZZ

Well, the end of your post is kind of my point. He's made 3 moves, really. One points to a better player analytically (Umberger > Hartnell), one points the other way (Rinaldo), and one is a player who will struggle to see NHL time (White). I don't think there's enough of a sample pool to say either he does or does not.

Also, not all roster moves should be driven simply by analytics, otherwise every NHL roster would look more or less the same, and no one would want to touch players like Ryan Suter or Shea Weber because of their negative Corsi Rel. numbers.
- jmatchett383

I'm pretty sure Hartnell's advanced stats well exceeded Umberger's. I remember a lot of blogs ripping the trade (the Flyers side) due to how much better Hartnell looked in fancy stat realms. So this would support the argument Hexy Doesn't use advanced stats for personnel decisions.

And we are talking about analytics...

ZZZZZZZZZZ
- BiggE

Wake up, E...someone might mistake you for a 'client'.

And we are talking about analytics...

ZZZZZZZZZZ
- BiggE

Careful, people get butthurt when you complain about topics of discussion. lol

And we are talking about analytics...

ZZZZZZZZZZ
- BiggE

Summer 2014

And you're saying, based solely on the Rinaldo/White signings, that Hextall clearly doesn't use/know how to use analytics? Because if not, I'm really not following you, and if you are saying that, I'm just going to disagree.
- jmatchett383

I admitted my statement was a bit rash but I didn't say he didn't know them. To clear it up, I feel the Rinaldo/White signings were not something done with analytics and the fact that they happened is evidence, IMO, that Hextall's claim that he won't primarily use them for roster moves is more or less true. The Umberger deal seems to be an exception to this. In the end, you're right that the sample size is too low as of now.

My point is that if, after a year or two, Hextall continues not to utilize analytics as a major decision making tool in terms of roster building, then he's not using the tool properly because by using advanced stats to tweak things in game, he'll see what kind of players bring value and which ones are liabilities. Subsequently, it would be logical to acquire the more valuable types and discard the liabilities.

I'm pretty sure Hartnell's advanced stats well exceeded Umberger's. I remember a lot of blogs ripping the trade (the Flyers side) due to how much better Hartnell looked in fancy stat realms. So this would support the argument Hexy Doesn't use advanced stats for personnel decisions.
- mmcclatchy

I've never looked at the numbers, I just remember people complaining that Hartnell was slow, a product of his linemates, is signed for too long, etc and that Umberger is a good, solid, two-way speedster (relatively speaking) that is signed for not as long. But as for the fancy noodle stats, I don't know them.

I think it's very premature to say it appears Hextall doesn't use analytics or has been misleading about them. For starters, Hextall has said he won't only use analytics, that they're only a part of his process. For secondly, I don't think he's specified exactly what analytics he'll be using and when. For thirdly, there really haven't been many moves to judge him on. And for lastly, these are truly very minor player signings, and may represent not wanting to blow assets to shore up a fourth line when he's on the record as taking the long view on building this club.

I admitted my statement was a bit rash but I didn't say he didn't know them. To clear it up, I feel the Rinaldo/White signings were not something done with analytics and the fact that they happened is evidence, IMO, that Hextall's claim that he won't primarily use them for roster moves is more or less true. The Umberger deal seems to be an exception to this. In the end, you're right that the sample size is too low as of now.

My point is that if, after a year or two, Hextall continues not to utilize analytics as a major decision making tool in terms of roster building, then he's not using the tool properly because by using advanced stats to tweak things in game, he'll see what kind of players bring value and which ones are liabilities. Subsequently, it would be logical to acquire the more valuable types and discard the liabilities.
- NickTheKid87

That's fine, I totally agree with that. I'm willing to give him time to see how he constructs the team. In the end, if we have the worst Corsi rating in the league but win a Cup, then I really don't care, I just want a winner. If Hextall feels that using tools like advanced stats are one of the correct tools to use, then I would expect him to use every tool necessary to build a winner.

Careful, people get butthurt when you complain about topics of discussion. lol
- GOA88

Jfc

Wake up, E...someone might mistake you for a 'client'.
- tangent_man

And we are talking about analytics...

ZZZZZZZZZZ
- BiggE

Music died in 1979.

Music died in 1979.
- jmatchett383

Plenty of good stuff out there nowadays.

Careful, people get butthurt when you complain about topics of discussion. lol
- GOA88

What exactly does butthurt mean? I mean, I can think of a fairly literal translation, but I think it more relates to anger than the pain experienced from anal sex.

Plenty of good stuff out there nowadays.
- Giroux_Is_God

There is and isn't. For someone who listened to nothing but punk and hardcore (and Nine Inch Nails) between the ages of 13 and 22, I actually find myself liking more and more of the "pop" music today than rock music today. I really think some weird sort of shift in talent has occured, or I'm just an old angry man who wants "my music" back.

I've never looked at the numbers, I just remember people complaining that Hartnell was slow, a product of his linemates, is signed for too long, etc and that Umberger is a good, solid, two-way speedster (relatively speaking) that is signed for not as long. But as for the fancy noodle stats, I don't know them.
- jmatchett383

My analytics on this trade was that Berube was tired of Hartnell playing an undisciplined game, and felt Hartnell was never going to make an effort to change this.

Now people will say, well then why did they sign Rinaldo? I will say it is because Rinaldo is a 4th liner who can be sent to Allentown if he doesn't get it under control.

My analytics on this trade was that Berube was tired of Hartnell playing an undisciplined game, and felt Hartnell was never going to make an effort to change this.

Now people will say, well then why did they sign Rinaldo? I will say it is because Rinaldo is a 4th liner who can be sent to Allentown if he doesn't get it under control.
- MBFlyerfan

Rinaldo's also much younger, and is not expected to play Hartnell's role.

I think it's very premature to say it appears Hextall doesn't use analytics or has been misleading about them. For starters, Hextall has said he won't only use analytics, that they're only a part of his process. For secondly, I don't think he's specified exactly what analytics he'll be using and when. For thirdly, there really haven't been many moves to judge him on. And for lastly, these are truly very minor player signings, and may represent not wanting to blow assets to shore up a fourth line when he's on the record as taking the long view on building this club.
- BulliesPhan87

Good points all. I still think there are more valuable players to be had at the same price as Rinaldo that would be better for the 4th line. Same with an NHL filler like White.

I think part of me is paranoid as well as spoiled when it comes to GMs saying they'll use analytics. On one hand, Ruben Amaro Jr. said he'd start using them (also without specifying which) yet continues to make moves that are indicative of the non-use of these stats. He won't even look at OBP.

On the flip side, Sam Hinkie has come into the Sixers front office with the advanced stats approach and completely flipped the team without wasting any time.

Time will tell with Hextall but given that Snider, who is the puppet master, still seems to want to play in a line with tradition, I don't think we'll see as much analytics as Hextall says/wants.

What exactly does butthurt mean? I mean, I can think of a fairly literal translation, but I think it more relates to anger than the pain experienced from anal sex.
- jmatchett383

Precisely

My analytics on this trade was that Berube was tired of Hartnell playing an undisciplined game, and felt Hartnell was never going to make an effort to change this.

Now people will say, well then why did they sign Rinaldo? I will say it is because Rinaldo is a 4th liner who can be sent to Allentown if he doesn't get it under control.
- MBFlyerfan

If they ever want Rinaldo to be more than a bowling ball on skates then Allentown is where he should be, getting 15+ minutes a game and being on the top PK unit.

Good points all. I still think there are more valuable players to be had at the same price as Rinaldo that would be better for the 4th line. Same with an NHL filler like White.

I think part of me is paranoid as well as spoiled when it comes to GMs saying they'll use analytics. On one hand, Ruben Amaro Jr. said he'd start using them (also without specifying which) yet continues to make moves that are indicative of the non-use of these stats. He won't even look at OBP.

On the flip side, Sam Hinkie has come into the Sixers from office with the advanced stats approach and completely flipped the team without wasting any time.

Time will tell with Hextall but given that Snider, who is the puppet master, still seems to want to play in a line with tradition, I don't think we'll see as much analytics as Hextall says/wants.
- NickTheKid87

Not to get too off topic, but this recent surge of Sixers love is truly perplexing to me. This team basically tore itself apart, traded it best players, tied the record for longest losing streak ever, is most likely going to be the worst team in the league this year, has long-term injuries to its 2 most promising players (neither of which have played an NBA game yet), and people are automatically stating they'll be a championship contender in 3-4 years.

I just don't get it. I'd like to see some evidence of success before people call Sam Hinkie some miracle worker genius. It may be that Noel can't hack it in the NBA, MCW is nothing but a supporting role player, and Embiid never recovers from his crippled state.

Precisely
- GOA88

That doesn't answer the question.

If they ever want Rinaldo to be more than a bowling ball on skates then Allentown is where he should be, getting 15+ minutes a game and being on the top PK unit.
- Feanor

The question then becomes which career AHLer/young kid you put in his place. Our forward depth is pretty unimpressive.