Bellemare, Alderson, Gordon, VdV, Jones, and Laughton are all options for the 4th line. Eventually White, Cousins and Leier will be, too.
- Feanor

Jury's still out on Cousins/Leier. Maybe in a year or two. As for the rest, Bellemare and Alderson and relatively unknown quantities, Gordon, VdV, and Jones are basically career AHLers, and Laughton is a center, not a wing. I know we're talking 12th forward to 13th forward, but I don't think there's necessarily a better fit for his spot right now.

I know you're joking, but an 18-year-old kid who rode with Anthony Mantha last year on a championship team needs to be lights out at camp to even get a sniff of a spot.
- jmatchett383

Oh absolutely. But he didn't play with Mantha I don't believe he carried his own 2nd line. He has been crazy good in preseason I've seen 3 of his games and kid is fun to watch. I highly doubt he even sniffs a roster spot but would be nice to have a 18 yo rookie goal scorer

The problem here is that Berube wants them to play a quicker game but the team is slow so he needs to adjust his system. While it's more sound than Lavy's (with this group) it's still not quite a good fit for the roster. If he were to use analytics, he'd see that Grossmann isn't nearly as good as he thinks. Grossmann should be used as a 3rd pairing dman against relatively light competition.

As for teams that have implored analytics, the Kings and Blackhawks are a couple. The mess of franchises that are the Leafs and Oilers have both recently hired analytics experts to help right the ship.
- NickTheKid87

Playing "quicker" is different then being fast. He wants them to be in position, ready to move the puck. Knowing where to make the play before it actually comes to them. I think there is a difference

Playing "quicker" is different then being fast. He wants them to be in position, ready to move the puck. Knowing where to make the play before it actually comes to them. I think there is a difference
- J35Bacher

Yeah I agree but it has been fairly evident that he's trying to get some of the players to do things they can't. He preaches dmen jumping up on the rush but realistically maybe 2 on the roster could do that effectively last year.

Just because baseball is a perfect fit for analytics doesn't mean hockey is relatively impenetrable. The game is still a closed system, with a set of rules, and clearly defined goals. Math can tease out the origins of the universe... I think it'll be up to the challenge of figuring out if your team is better off sinking your cap-dollars into Grabo or Bozak.


- Tomahawk

I do not think it is impenetrable. However, I do not think analytics will ever be used to evaluate an individual players performance/value in hockey to the level it is used in baseball. Hockey is a truly a team game. So much of what a teammate does factors into an individual players advanced stats.

Baseball offers more individual specific metrics..

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Improving on Last Season's Benchmarks, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

happy, happy, mr. bill! and thank you for all the great blogs over this unbearably long offseason!

hope you have a great day.

Yeah I agree but it has been fairly evident that he's trying to get some of the players to do things they can't. He preaches dmen jumping up on the rush but realistically maybe 2 on the roster could do that effectively last year.
- NickTheKid87

Striet and kimo really. I would love for coburn to actually use his size and barrel in to join the rush. I also think we should try vinny at pp point and schenn take hartnell spot in the high slot and in front. Not that our pp needs help but I think Philly has to throw vinny a bone in order for him to be effective and happy in locker room

Yeah I agree but it has been fairly evident that he's trying to get some of the players to do things they can't. He preaches dmen jumping up on the rush but realistically maybe 2 on the roster could do that effectively last year.
- NickTheKid87

And this year tey have one from each pairing. Del Zotto, Coburn, Striet can all skate well and push the puck. Berubes system is more a commitment to team d and support. Controlled Pressure. Think LA Kings. They made it work with dman like scuderi, Green, Reghr, mitchell.

I do not think it is impenetrable. However, I do not think analytics will ever be used to evaluate an individual players performance/value in hockey to the level it is used in baseball. Hockey is a truly a team game. So much of what a teammate does factors into an individual players advanced stats.

Baseball offers more individual specific metrics..
- mickel25

Stats will get more refined as time goes by. There will always be the team play factor in hockey not present in baseball but there's no reason to believe that it won't get to the point where an individual player can't be isolated.

And this year tey have one from each pairing. Del Zotto, Coburn, Striet can all skate well and push the puck. Berubes system is more a commitment to team d and support. Controlled Pressure. Think LA Kings. They made it work with dman like scuderi, Green, Reghr, mitchell.
- J35Bacher

The Kings played to their strengths. They weren't a high flying offensive team partly because of the speed (or lack there of) on the blueline. The addition of Del Zotto will help with the offense from the defense (or one would hope) plus Streit is more than capable of joining the rush. Coburn has the skating ability but his offensive prowess isn't quite there to be an ideal candidate. Grossmann and Schenn aren't capable obviously.

I do not think it is impenetrable. However, I do not think analytics will ever be used to evaluate an individual players performance/value in hockey to the level it is used in baseball. Hockey is a truly a team game. So much of what a teammate does factors into an individual players advanced stats.

Baseball offers more individual specific metrics..
- mickel25

I guess we'll just have to see.

Give hockey the same couple of decades to catch up, more robust data capture, and more team/league support, and I think it'll get there eventually. Maybe the results won't have the same rock-solid degree of confidence that you might see in a less fluid sport, but that won't mean you won't have the tools necessary to isolate player contribution to the extent necessary to find diamonds and cut dead weight (and avoid signing that mid-30's former superstar C).

as some of you may know, i design InGoal Magazine, which is distributed online only. Unfortunately, it's been awhile since we've been able to produce a full-size, regular issue, but the good news is the brand new September 2014 issue was posted this morning. Most of it will not interest any of you, as it's loaded with gear reviews and training information, but i'd love for you all take a gander when you have a moment. thanks!

http://magazine.ingoalmag.../publication/?m=18095&l=1

Stats will get more refined as time goes by. There will always be the team play factor in hockey not present in baseball but there's no reason to believe that it won't get to the point where an individual player can't be isolated.
- NickTheKid87

I agree but even if the player is isolated he is still bound to the performance of the players on the ice with him and the players he plays against.

Off topic, but how the hell did the Rangers get John Moore to accept his QO?

Yeah that Orr fella, great wheels and scored a ton of points, but his corsi was crap! Trade him for Moose Dupont immediately!!
- BiggE

Let's face it, Orr's career was a result of rapid expansion and a diluted talent pool at the NHL level.

I agree but even if the player is isolated he is still bound to the performance of the players on the ice with him and the players he plays against.
- mickel25

Well the isolation would rid him of that bond. That's the point. I could see it become something like the things that go into calculating baseball's Win Above Replacement i.e. taking into account poor decision making, flubbed passes, bad shot selection, etc.

I love this. We've used math to figure out how large and old the universe is, how far we are from the sun, how to get a man on the moon but it's useless when applied to hockey/sports.
- NickTheKid87

It took so long. It would take light years to figure out hockey

Ditto.




- tangent_man

The Kings played to their strengths. They weren't a high flying offensive team partly because of the speed (or lack there of) on the blueline. The addition of Del Zotto will help with the offense from the defense (or one would hope) plus Streit is more than capable of joining the rush. Coburn has the skating ability but his offensive prowess isn't quite there to be an ideal candidate. Grossmann and Schenn aren't capable obviously.
- NickTheKid87

I think you really saw how this team could play when they went out west on that trip. The team d was impressive and the d looked sharp. When they commited to the system this team loked fast and could plah anyone. When people didn' u ould tell and the team looked slow

It took so long. It would take light years to figure out hockey
- PhillySportsGuy

(Greeks + Romans - Dark Ages) + (Renaissance/Catholic chruch) x computer age = 138 years until math can make a dent in hockey

- ob18

I think you really saw how this team could play when they went out west on that trip. The team d was impressive and the d looked sharp. When they commited to the system this team loked fast and could plah anyone. When people didn' u ould tell and the team looked slow
- J35Bacher

Like Bill has said before, a team is never as good as their best and never as bad as their worst. The team was capable of being good but not being consistently good. They're destined for more of the same.

The Kings played to their strengths. They weren't a high flying offensive team partly because of the speed (or lack there of) on the blueline. The addition of Del Zotto will help with the offense from the defense (or one would hope) plus Streit is more than capable of joining the rush. Coburn has the skating ability but his offensive prowess isn't quite there to be an ideal candidate. Grossmann and Schenn aren't capable obviously.
- NickTheKid87

Yeah, Kings are really tightly locked as a 5-man unit up and down the ice... it's 5-foot passes everywhere, even dudes like Scuderi can execute. Flyers don't have that same foundation of positional discipline... yet.

Yeah, Kings are really tightly locked as a 5-man unit up and down the ice... it's 5-foot passes everywhere, even dudes like Scuderi can execute. Flyers don't have that foundation of positional discipline... yet.
- Tomahawk

I'm not in the Berube fan club. I don't know if he can be the kind of coach that gets the team deep in the playoffs or even utilize a roster to it's top capacity. I like where the team is headed though, more or less. The foundation is there at least up front and if one (or two. Hopefully four) of Gostisbehere, Morin, Sanheim and Hagg can develop into a top 4 defender or better, with trades and signings, the team can be a legit contender within the next 2-5 years.

Off topic, but how the hell did the Rangers get John Moore to accept his QO?
- Tomahawk