Ok so we cannot use the past when discussion global warming anymore
- Cape Breton Bruins

The creator of this thread (- senstroll ) rules...........not mine.
see post Wednesday @ 10:02 AM ET

i think if both play the full 82 games, healthy, kessel still has a better year......but i think it will be close.

i would project each to have around 30-35 goals, but i'd give kessel the edge in assists.

i'd say:

ryan 35-35/70pts

kessel 35-45/80pts
- sensarmy_11

You think he's gonna have a near career year with the worst linemates of his entire career?

I'd say he'll be clsoer to 25 goals, 30 assists.

i honestly can't see kessel being 20pts ahead of him, if both are healthy. i think the "karlsson factor" alone will boost ryan's points. you can almost guarantee that ryan and karlsson will be on the ice together as much as possible (both 5v5 and PP), which is always good for a forwards offensive numbers. no offense to rielly/gardiner/or phaneuf, but none of them have the offensive ability of karlsson.

not saying that ryan will outscore kessel as a result, but i think it will keep ryan within about 10pts of him.
- sensarmy_11

most like 30 points. He's not in Anaheim anymore. His linemates suck.

Just this single season nothing before
- senstroll

Is plus/minus going to be allowed into the discussion?

I know how some leaf fans hate this stat because none of the leafs top 6 from last year fared well in this stat.

In Kessel's case he finished the year at minus 5, and is already sitting at minus 2 for this season.

If you're asking to compare the two players, is it not fair to look at their defensive value to their team?

Kessel does not kill penalties does he?

I know Ryan was not used last season on the PK either, but this might change this season.


Yes I know the plus/minus stat does not apply when on the PP or PK.

But defensive responsibilities must have some measure (stat) that you would find acceptable in this debate

Is plus/minus going to be allowed into the discussion?

I know how some leaf fans hate this stat because none of the leafs top 6 from last year fared well in this stat.

In Kessel's case he finished the year at minus 5, and is already sitting at minus 2 for this season.

If you're asking to compare the two players, is it not fair to look at their defensive value to their team?

Kessel does not kill penalties does he?

I know Ryan was not used last season on the PK either, but this might change this season.


Yes I know the plus/minus stat does not apply when on the PP or PK.

But defensive responsibilities must have some measure (stat) that you would find acceptable in this debate
- Doppleganger

Most don’t like it because it’s a crap stat. But if YOU think it’s any good, how do you feel about it painting Phaneuf as better than Karlsson?

Most don’t like it because it’s a crap stat. But if YOU think it’s any good, how do you feel about it painting Phaneuf as better than Karlsson?
- prock

This is a Kessel vs Ryan thread, based on this season that started last night.

However if you can point to a stat (advanced?) that could be used to compare each players value to their team defensively, then it might be welcomed.

This is a Kessel vs Ryan thread, based on this season that started last night.

However if you can point to a stat (advanced?) that could be used to compare each players value to their team defensively, then it might be welcomed.
- Doppleganger

One doesn't exist.

One doesn't exist.
- prock

So in lieu of that, then you agree that plus/minus is all we have to work with, along with TOI in special teams.

So in lieu of that, then you agree that plus/minus is all we have to work with, along with TOI in special teams.
- Doppleganger

no plus minus .. i will use possession stats as part of the analysis

no plus minus .. i will use possession stats as part of the analysis
- senstroll

As a measure of defensive effectiveness, goals against while on the ice is better than +/-. When guys like Mike Green and Erik Karlsson can put up decent +/-'s some years, you know it has nothing to do with how good someone is defensively.

EDIT - I shouldn't say "nothing". But you have zero idea without digging further.

As a measure of defensive effectiveness, goals against while on the ice is better than +/-. When guys like Mike Green and Erik Karlsson can put up decent +/-'s some years, you know it has nothing to do with how good someone is defensively.

EDIT - I shouldn't say "nothing". But you have zero idea without digging further.
- prock

Well I'm not into the "advanced stats" as I don't have the time to go through them, so will appreciate if you or anyone else can comment on them.

But I can see we agree that defensive responsibilities are part of the equation here, and am not surprised that Kessel is a minus player.

Kessel 4 games 2 goals 3 assists 5 points
Ryan 3 games 0 goals 1 assist 1 point

On pace for

Kessel 41g 62a 103p
Ryan 0g 27a 27p

Well I'm not into the "advanced stats" as I don't have the time to go through them, so will appreciate if you or anyone else can comment on them.

But I can see we agree that defensive responsibilities are part of the equation here, and am not surprised that Kessel is a minus player.
- Doppleganger

I'm not surprised the anaheim ducks were a top team. Declined when bobby Ryan started playing full time. Stayed that way you until he left. Then got better again. Kessel is way better.

Kessel 4 games 2 goals 3 assists 5 points
Ryan 3 games 0 goals 1 assist 1 point

On pace for

Kessel 41g 62a 103p
Ryan 0g 27a 27p
- senstroll

Didn't we decide JVR was a better comparison?

Didn't we decide JVR was a better comparison?
- prock

Well your right JVR is a better comparison but I will bet the sens are just glad to be the best team in Ontario. Perhaps that is the leafs problem, they focus on individuals and not the team and that is why they suck.

Well your right JVR is a better comparison but I will bet the sens are just glad to be the best team in Ontario. Perhaps that is the leafs problem, they focus on individuals and not the team and that is why they suck.
- jordan456789

When a team that has failed to even get tot he Stanley Cup Finals in over 47 years, you begin to cling to things like how much money the Owner(s) are making, how many fans their team has, how a team that is situated within 90 minuted drive of one third of the Population of Canada call sell out their building to Businesses and their clients while the regular fans can't afford to pay the highest ticket prices in the NHL and have to stand outside of the arena and watch on video screens etc etc

When a team that has won only one Division championship in the last 47 years there is not much to cheer about.................so all they're left with is to try and convince themselves, and no one else, that their team is better than the provincial rival............which of course it is not.

It's kinda funny.

Kessel 7 games 4 goals 4 assists 8 points
Ryan 5 games 1 goals 1 assist 2 point

On pace for

Kessel 47g 47a 94p
Ryan 16g 16a 32p


I thought Ryan would be putting up more of a challenge this early

Kessel 7 games 4 goals 4 assists 8 points
Ryan 5 games 1 goals 1 assist 2 point

On pace for

Kessel 47g 47a 94p
Ryan 16g 16a 32p


I thought Ryan would be putting up more of a challenge this early
- senstroll

I thought we agreed it would be more fair to bobby Ryan to use JVR?

Maybe David clarkson would be better right now though.

I think part of the problem is, now that Ryan has his new contract, he's probably struggling to find motivation. We know that he's not a guy that has a natural competitive nature, and isn't a very intense person, so the game of hockey and the standings, may not be enough of a motivation for him. And now that he's not on the best line in the NHL any more, without that intensity, he might struggle.

I thought we agreed it would be more fair to bobby Ryan to use JVR?

Maybe David clarkson would be better right now though.

I think part of the problem is, now that Ryan has his new contract, he's probably struggling to find motivation. We know that he's not a guy that has a natural competitive nature, and isn't a very intense person, so the game of hockey and the standings, may not be enough of a motivation for him. And now that he's not on the best line in the NHL any more, without that intensity, he might struggle.
- prock

i never agreed
i said start your own if you want.

i liked the comparable I posted originally.
top 5 picks
Both traded for picks and prospects
both consistent 30 goal scorers

at the time the gpg was almost identical

i never agreed
i said start your own if you want.

i liked the comparable I posted originally.
top 5 picks
Both traded for picks and prospects
both consistent 30 goal scorers

at the time the gpg was almost identical
- senstroll

Over their careers, sure. The goals per game and points per game in recent years hasn’t been anywhere close to the same. Realistically, the GPG and PtsPG are a little skewed due to the way they started their careers, as well. Along with the fact that Bobby Ryan was the passenger of the best line in the NHL, playing with Getzlaf and Perry.

Remember how in 2009 everyone laughed and said Phil Kessel only scored because of Marc Savard and would suck without him? Thankfully, those people were wrong.

In Ryan's case, it's looking like he really needs those great linemates to produce.

Kessel scores with anyone and makes his linemates far better.

Over their careers, sure. The goals per game and points per game in recent years hasn’t been anywhere close to the same. Realistically, the GPG and PtsPG are a little skewed due to the way they started their careers, as well. Along with the fact that Bobby Ryan was the passenger of the best line in the NHL, playing with Getzlaf and Perry.
- prock

And in that case, Ryan had a big advantage because he started his career late due to cap issues on the Ducks. Phil started immediately and got cancer.

The last 3 years it's clear who is easily better.

And in that case, Ryan had a big advantage because he started his career late due to cap issues on the Ducks. Phil started immediately and got cancer.

The last 3 years it's clear who is easily better.
- RogerRoeper

Yeah its not even close with kessel. JVR becoming a better comparison. Actually jvr passing Ryan. Clarkson catching up so far this year.

Bobby Ryan now tied with David clarkson for goals.

Bobby Ryan now tied with David clarkson for goals.
- prock

What about PPG?









BTW

Ottawa .750
toronto .438