Hard to argue with the list, or the approach. I think the eye test is important beyond stats. I would rework the order a bit, but the players on the list are consensus all-league D. And while I think Weber & Subban should be 1-2, I would also agree that Karlsson is more than just a points machine, and Doughty is no slouch. As for Karlsson, I've heard lots of arguments against him (and I've made some at times). But, holding the puck effectively in the opponents' end reduces offensive chances for your opponent, so that is a skill that if often overlooked when evaluating defensemen.
- holycow_75

I agree - especially about the Karlsson part. It will be interesting to look at it from another angle tomorrow and see who we get.

Also, the list I provided, it should clearly have Byfuglien and Giordano on it, but I eliminated them because one is injured and the other plays half his games at forward.

not entirely true!
i scrolled to the bottom and i read the 1-5 and put in my 2 cents then read the article

I tossed up my blog literally the same time.

nice write up thanks!
- Lucas Neilson

Haha right on, I was just ribbing you anyways.

Haha right on, I was just ribbing you anyways.
- James_Tanner

Always best to read a fellow bloggers write ups

and i had JUST PM'd you too!

I cannot condone any list of top defensemen that has Karlsson on it. If I were starting a team today, my first draft pick on D would be Subban. As much as I hate the "cheap" element of his game, a la Brad Marchand, he is adept at both ends of the rink and can absolutely take control of any given game. Karlsson wouldn't even make my top-100.

No mention of Victor Hedman? I believe it is either he or Weber. My main reasoning is, you can't teach size. Karlsson, Pk, Hedman, Weber, Keith, Doughty are all so close in skill, aside maybe Karlsson, who's insane, its hard to separate them. Hedman and Weber have the size that separates them from the pack. They're damn near impossible to beat in board battles, they have a long reach/ dangerous stick check, and you never know when they might actually kill someone. That's my biggest knock on Karlsson, otherwise he'd be my #1. He's not bad defensively, but he definitely struggles vs bigger forwards down low and in front of the net. He can get pushed around sometimes, which I don't like. So for now, my #1 is Weber with big Vic ready to take the crown in a year or 2. Unless EK can really start to wow me with stronger d zone play

I agree - especially about the Karlsson part. It will be interesting to look at it from another angle tomorrow and see who we get.

Also, the list I provided, it should clearly have Byfuglien and Giordano on it, but I eliminated them because one is injured and the other plays half his games at forward.
- James_Tanner

Yeah, I'd love to see a full year of Buff on D. If you read my post, he definitely fits my criteria for top D man. When everyone is this close skill wise, size and strength really matter

The only player to ever win the Norris and Selke in the same year.
- dothedougie

And the Heisman Trophy

Weber

or

Doughty


- Lucas Neilson

Agreed, then ....


























Luke Schenn

slowly the Ottawa team is being shaped around Karlsson. He is still a year or two away from prime time. Nobody comes close to what he is able to do.

Agreed, then ....


























Luke Schenn
- PhiFaninEdm

Just give him the Norris now

No mention of Victor Hedman? I believe it is either he or Weber. My main reasoning is, you can't teach size. Karlsson, Pk, Hedman, Weber, Keith, Doughty are all so close in skill, aside maybe Karlsson, who's insane, its hard to separate them. Hedman and Weber have the size that separates them from the pack. They're damn near impossible to beat in board battles, they have a long reach/ dangerous stick check, and you never know when they might actually kill someone. That's my biggest knock on Karlsson, otherwise he'd be my #1. He's not bad defensively, but he definitely struggles vs bigger forwards down low and in front of the net. He can get pushed around sometimes, which I don't like. So for now, my #1 is Weber with big Vic ready to take the crown in a year or 2. Unless EK can really start to wow me with stronger d zone play
- Shaundre93

I was a graduate assistant for a professor who taught a class on size once. So you're wrong.

That was a well put together piece James. Good job.

slowly the Ottawa team is being shaped around Karlsson. He is still a year or two away from prime time. Nobody comes close to what he is able to do.
- spatso

Subban.

James Tanner
Arizona Coyotes
Joined: 12.21.2013

"Based on what? I just gave you some pretty objective information that suggest he's (Yandle) an elite #1 and in the top 5 at the worst."


-------------------

Opinions change.

Skjei 5 years from now
- oilerfan94

Maybe

I didn't read it - I'll figure out what stats were ignored, but can someone tell me what stats were created to give the nomination to OEL or Keith Yandle?

Who influenced this blog more, me or Steve Simmonds?

All things considered, this may be the best blog I have read from you to date.

A Global Warming denying, Maroon Five fan who watches the Voice, Real Houswives of Coldwater Ontario, and goes to a lot of Nickleback concerts, has a Billy the Bass hat, and says things like 'Derp' and 'Oh Snap' who is always taking "selfies" and posting pictures of food that they eat online?

You know in your heart that's wrong; that you hate that person to the core of your very sole, so what I am saying, is that in general you should be distrustful of "everyone knows that" opinions.

This quote is one of those memorable ones that, although hilarious, always makes me very sad and jaded because they make up way too big a percentage of people nowadays.

War-on-ice.com


Dougie.......!

21 and he is already a possession machine and has the same 5 vs 5 point production as Letang.

I get the new infatuation thing with Victor Hedman as a new up and comer, but using the "numbers" you would be better off with Hamilton easy.

I guess my point and/or question would be.........how does a guys like Victor get talked about as the next D stud and nowhere is Dougie mentioned and he has had a great start to his career?


ADDED** And the advanced stats are showing why Johnny Boychuck is going to get over $6 mill a year........although many probably think he still isn't worth it.

Notice how all these guys are on playoff teams, except Karlsson?

Put Karlsson on the Habs, Pens, Kings or Hawks and the kid will be close to 90pts every season.

Karlsson is on a team that lacks a true #1 center and really only has one top line player at all (Bobby Ryan). Karlsson is not playing on the Sens of the early 2000s. Ottawa is a mediocre team at best and a poor team without EK.

Sure, he's mostly offensive, but at some point, one has to realize that if your team is scoring a ton of goals while the particular guy is on the ice and spending 70% of every sift in the offensive end, then offense>defense.

Bobby Orr was a 'mostly offensive' Dman too, and no one will argue that he's the best of all time.

Karlsson IS the Sens. You can't say the same about any of these other guys, except possibly Weber.

War-on-ice.com


Dougie.......!

21 and he is already a possession machine and has the same 5 vs 5 point production as Letang.

I get the new infatuation thing with Victor Hedman as a new up and comer, but using the "numbers" you would be better off with Hamilton easy.

I guess my point and/or question would be.........how does a guys like Victor get talked about as the next D stud and nowhere is Dougie mentioned and he has had a great start to his career?


ADDED** And the advanced stats are showing why Johnny Boychuck is going to get over $6 mill a year........although many probably think he still isn't worth it.
- JIwasinskiJr

Boychuk is worth over 6M a year today but the problem is he's already fairly old and giving him that money for 5, 6, or even 7 years could be a mistake within 2 years of that deal being signed.

I cannot condone any list of top defensemen that has Karlsson on it. If I were starting a team today, my first draft pick on D would be Subban. As much as I hate the "cheap" element of his game, a la Brad Marchand, he is adept at both ends of the rink and can absolutely take control of any given game. Karlsson wouldn't even make my top-100.
- rynoisgod

Then I guess you'd be the Mike Milbury of your fantasy league.

I agree - especially about the Karlsson part. It will be interesting to look at it from another angle tomorrow and see who we get.

Also, the list I provided, it should clearly have Byfuglien and Giordano on it, but I eliminated them because one is injured and the other plays half his games at forward.
- James_Tanner

Who gets bumped if those two make the top 5?

By the rankings it would be keith/letang/weber?

But he's not even close to as bad as people think. Plus, he's a possession dominating player who has excelled under bad circumstances since he got a new coach.
- James_Tanner

How so exactly? It certainly isn't translating into goals or wins. What is his "excelling" leading to ?

Notice how all these guys are on playoff teams, except Karlsson?

Put Karlsson on the Habs, Pens, Kings or Hawks and the kid will be close to 90pts every season.

Karlsson is on a team that lacks a true #1 center and really only has one top line player at all (Bobby Ryan). Karlsson is not playing on the Sens of the early 2000s. Ottawa is a mediocre team at best and a poor team without EK.

Sure, he's mostly offensive, but at some point, one has to realize that if your team is scoring a ton of goals while the particular guy is on the ice and spending 70% of every sift in the offensive end, then offense>defense.

Bobby Orr was a 'mostly offensive' Dman too, and no one will argue that he's the best of all time.

Karlsson IS the Sens. You can't say the same about any of these other guys, except possibly Weber.
- Charliebox

Besides Pacioretty, who are the Habs true top line players that would propel Karlsson to 90 points?

That was a well put together piece James. Good job.
- LeafsNation905

Thanks very much.