Personally I'd go with Keith and Letang but I'd put Suter and Weber in the conversation too. Honorable mentions to Doughty/Karlsson/Ekman-Larson/Pietrangelo and PK Slewban

James Tanner
Arizona Coyotes
Joined: 12.21.2013

"Based on what? I just gave you some pretty objective information that suggest he's (Yandle) an elite #1 and in the top 5 at the worst."


-------------------

Opinions change.
- Reeder17

If I recall correctly, that was a from a statistical analysis of the past five years. Of which Yandle absolutely dominates from a stats perspective.

Notice how all these guys are on playoff teams, except Karlsson?

Put Karlsson on the Habs, Pens, Kings or Hawks and the kid will be close to 90pts every season.

Karlsson is on a team that lacks a true #1 center and really only has one top line player at all (Bobby Ryan). Karlsson is not playing on the Sens of the early 2000s. Ottawa is a mediocre team at best and a poor team without EK.

Sure, he's mostly offensive, but at some point, one has to realize that if your team is scoring a ton of goals while the particular guy is on the ice and spending 70% of every sift in the offensive end, then offense>defense.

Bobby Orr was a 'mostly offensive' Dman too, and no one will argue that he's the best of all time.

Karlsson IS the Sens. You can't say the same about any of these other guys, except possibly Weber.
- Charliebox

I'm sure Orr played a lot of key shifts in the defensive zone too, which Karlsson does poorly or not much at all. It's why he has incredibly minimal PK time.

I'm sorry but if you cant be trusted enough to be on the ice when the play is primarily in your own zone, then as a "defensemen" it's tough for me to consider him the best

Boychuk is worth over 6M a year today but the problem is he's already fairly old and giving him that money for 5, 6, or even 7 years could be a mistake within 2 years of that deal being signed.
- rangerdanger94

Was thinking the same thing originally, BUT.......

1.). D men usually hit there prime in there mid to late 20s.

2.). Chara signed his FIRST $7 mil contract with the Bs when he was 28! (This one surprised me)

3.). Matt Niskanen is 28 with his deal and orpik was 34........Johnny may be the "hottest" D man FA this year!

slowly the Ottawa team is being shaped around Karlsson. He is still a year or two away from prime time. Nobody comes close to what he is able to do.
- spatso

You've obviously havent seen Dion phaneuf hes next biggest and greatest thing.

Who influenced this blog more, me or Steve Simmonds?

All things considered, this may be the best blog I have read from you to date.



This quote is one of those memorable ones that, although hilarious, always makes me very sad and jaded because they make up way too big a percentage of people nowadays.
- tom_delonge_ava

I am glad you liked it, but yeah, makes me sad too. The article was influenced I guess just from some of the conversations I had yesterday after printing the Simmons quote.

I'm sure Orr played a lot of key shifts in the defensive zone too, which Karlsson does poorly or not much at all. It's why he has incredibly minimal PK time.

I'm sorry but if you cant be trusted enough to be on the ice when the play is primarily in your own zone, then as a "defensemen" it's tough for me to consider him the best
- sbroads24

People used that argument about PK (hes now used on the PK a lot) but i dont think it holds water. Some players excel in certain positions - crosby is the best forward in the world but they dont use him much on the PK (i dont think...).

To maximize the ice time for karlsson doesnt it make sense to put him in situations where he can optimize his skill set which is putting up points? Why waste his energy and talents with a PK when you can have someone else do it probably nearly as well. I guess this goes back to james point about what a person values in a defenseman.

Who gets bumped if those two make the top 5?

By the rankings it would be keith/letang/weber?
- DirtyDozen

Kind of illustrates the problem of rankings right, five is a pretty random cut-off. where's Hedman, OEL, Muzzin, Brodie?

People used that argument about PK (hes now used on the PK a lot) but i dont think it holds water. Some players excel in certain positions - crosby is the best forward in the world but they dont use him much on the PK (i dont think...).

To maximize the ice time for karlsson doesnt it make sense to put him in situations where he can optimize his skill set which is putting up points? Why waste his energy and talents with a PK when you can have someone else do it probably nearly as well. I guess this goes back to james point about what a person values in a defenseman.
- DirtyDozen

Which is perfectly fine because he plays forward. If someone called him the best 2 way player in the game because of his possession numbers, yet he didn't take on the tough defensive minutes....there would be a debate.

Killing a penalty can be compared to having a 1 goal lead with a minute left and the other team pressing. It's important in that instance to be solid in your own end. Karlsson isn't great when the ice is tilted towards his end. It's why he doesn't play PK

Eastern bias. To not have Giordano in there is just retarded.
- TandA4Flames

Yes, because Drew Doughty plays on an East Coast team.

James Tanner: Who Is the Best Defenseman in the NHL?
- James_Tanner

Amac......

Which is perfectly fine because he plays forward. If someone called him the best 2 way player in the game because of his possession numbers, yet he didn't take on the tough defensive minutes....there would be a debate.

Killing a penalty can be compared to having a 1 goal lead with a minute left and the other team pressing. It's important in that instance to be solid in your own end. Karlsson isn't great when the ice is tilted towards his end. It's why he doesn't play PK
- sbroads24

But that goes back to what you value in a defenseman...i am of the school that if your defender can keep the puck in the offensive end for 60%+ of his shifts then i'll accept a slightly weaker 'defensive' side to their game. Keeping the puck in the offensive zone to me is a fantastic defensive strategy.

I dont think playing the PK is neccesarily a key component of being the best defenseman. If Karlsson scored 90 pts would that be enough to negate that fact that he doesn't play the PK? By not playing the pk he stays fresher and maybe scores a goal he otherwise wouldnt...but again it all comes back to what a particular person values.

Amac......
- Ur Not Me

War-on-ice.com


Dougie.......!

21 and he is already a possession machine and has the same 5 vs 5 point production as Letang.

I get the new infatuation thing with Victor Hedman as a new up and comer, but using the "numbers" you would be better off with Hamilton easy.

I guess my point and/or question would be.........how does a guys like Victor get talked about as the next D stud and nowhere is Dougie mentioned and he has had a great start to his career?




ADDED** And the advanced stats are showing why Johnny Boychuck is going to get over $6 mill a year........although many probably think he still isn't worth it.
- JIwasinskiJr

He is asking about best D-men, not a dance.

No mention of Suter ?

But that goes back to what you value in a defenseman...i am of the school that if your defender can keep the puck in the offensive end for 60%+ of his shifts then i'll accept a slightly weaker 'defensive' side to their game. Keeping the puck in the offensive zone to me is a fantastic defensive strategy.

I dont think playing the PK is neccesarily a key component of being the best defenseman. If Karlsson scored 90 pts would that be enough to negate that fact that he doesn't play the PK? By not playing the pk he stays fresher and maybe scores a goal he otherwise wouldnt...but again it all comes back to what a particular person values.
- DirtyDozen

So by this logic, how many goals does Ovechkin need to score to be considered a great defensive player?

Karlsson could score 150 points, but it wont negate the fact that he's weak in certain situations in his own end.

giordano, oh wait he plays on a bad "corsi" team so nobody considers him. Puts karlsson first cause he puts up points, giordano was first for points before he got injured, and can actually defend

Which is perfectly fine because he plays forward. If someone called him the best 2 way player in the game because of his possession numbers, yet he didn't take on the tough defensive minutes....there would be a debate.

Killing a penalty can be compared to having a 1 goal lead with a minute left and the other team pressing.
- sbroads24

No it can't because Karlsson is normally out there when the Sens are up one goal with 1 min left and the other team's goalie is pulled.

Karlsson plays close to 30 mins a night and usually plays about 1:30 of every Sens PP.

Where are you going to find more mins for him to play the PK too?

This whole 'weakness' in his own end is so overblown.

Since Methot has come back, Karlsson has been a huge plus player. The majority of the last two seasons, he was tied to players like Cowen and Phillips, who aren't even top 4 Dmen, let alone top pairing guys.

As soon as a legit top 4 Dman got back into the lineup, Karlsson has been on absolute fire.. with +/- as well as points.

So by this logic, how many goals does Ovechkin need to score to be considered a great defensive player?

Karlsson could score 150 points, but it wont negate the fact that he's weak in certain situations in his own end.
- sbroads24

Is the goal of a defenseman not to keep the puck out of your end/net?

If you can keep the puck in the other teams end as a defenseman are you not doing your job? A defenseman does not play strictly in his own end, so while i agree that he is weaker in certain situations he excels in others such as a breakout, a first pass, carrying the puck out of his end, and putting up points.

You can have a fantastic 'defensive' defender who may look like he's always blocking shots and taking the puck away from the fwds but maybe thats cuz he cant get the puck out of his end effectively.

Was thinking the same thing originally, BUT.......

1.). D men usually hit there prime in there mid to late 20s.

2.). Chara signed his FIRST $7 mil contract with the Bs when he was 28! (This one surprised me)

3.). Matt Niskanen is 28 with his deal and orpik was 34........Johnny may be the "hottest" D man FA this year!
- JIwasinskiJr

I agree he will get paid. He could maintain that high level of play or he couldn't. It's really hard to tell when a player will start to decline. A guy like Brad Richards coming off PPG seasons in Dallas just fell off out of nowhere. A guy like Redden is an all star in Ottawa and just turns to a shell. Scott Gomez is traded after a solid year in NY and just stops being an NHL player. Boychuk could just lose a step and turn into a shell any year of that deal or he could be a stud like Timmonen until he retires. It's a big risk is all.

Is the goal of a defenseman not to keep the puck out of your end/net?

If you can keep the puck in the other teams end as a defenseman are you not doing your job? A defenseman does not play strictly in his own end, so while i agree that he is weaker in certain situations he excels in others such as a breakout, a first pass, carrying the puck out of his end, and putting up points.

You can have a fantastic 'defensive' defender who may look like he's always blocking shots and taking the puck away from the fwds but maybe thats cuz he cant get the puck out of his end effectively.
- DirtyDozen

It's a good thing defensemen play in pairings because you can pair a guy who is more of a stay at home defender like Methot to compliment an offensive guy like Karlsson.

cant have PK on my list as he is dirty, cheap, what ever you want to call it. Weber is my #1 as he is limited by nothing, big, fast, strong, skilled, smart, tough, disciplined.... every other Dman might have a few but not all.

Is the goal of a defenseman not to keep the puck out of your end/net?

If you can keep the puck in the other teams end as a defenseman are you not doing your job? A defenseman does not play strictly in his own end, so while i agree that he is weaker in certain situations he excels in others such as a breakout, a first pass, carrying the puck out of his end, and putting up points.

You can have a fantastic 'defensive' defender who may look like he's always blocking shots and taking the puck away from the fwds but maybe thats cuz he cant get the puck out of his end effectively.
- DirtyDozen

His GF/60 is 2.59
His GA/60 is 2.50

It's a positive differential yes, however not a big one

T.J Brodie who' is solid in both ends

GF/60 2.47
GA/60 1.89

Aren't goals not the end result of corsi? Corsi=shots=scoring chances=goals

If Karlsson provides so much offense, why doesn't his team score more per 60 min played than just about every other top defender?

In Karlsson's Norris trophy winning season he had 78 pts in 81 games played with a +16. The team's goal differential was +9.

That was the last season he got to play with a legit #1 NHL centerman (Spezza did play two more seasons but missed the whole lockout season with injury and battled a bad back and looked absolutely terrible last season).

Before he got his Achilles sliced, he had 14 pts in 17 games played and was a +8.

And this is on a mediocre team that barely snuck into the playoffs both seasons.

Last season, he was still recovering from his injury and was anchored to awful Dmen for the majority of the season.

He's just starting to get his form back now. If you honestly sit down and watch 5 Sens games in a row, you'll realize just how good this guy is.. at both ends of the ice.

So by this logic, how many goals does Ovechkin need to score to be considered a great defensive player?

Karlsson could score 150 points, but it wont negate the fact that he's weak in certain situations in his own end.
- sbroads24

If Karlsson scores 150 points he might be the best defenseman of all time considering how hard it is to put up points like that these days.