Besides Pacioretty, who are the Habs true top line players that would propel Karlsson to 90 points?
- sbroads24

Desharnais and Weise are beasts

If Karlsson scores 150 points he might be the best defenseman of all time considering how hard it is to put up points like that these days.
- rangerdanger94

Yet Alex Ovechkin isn't the best forward because of his possession #s and +/-?

Even though he scores more actual goals than everyone else?

Yet Alex Ovechkin isn't the best forward because of his possession #s and +/-?

Even though he scores more actual goals than everyone else?
- sbroads24

Unless you are absolutely lapping the field in points, like Lemieux and Gretz did, I don't think it's possible to be the best forward as a winger.

He's a victim of his position unfortunately.

If you don't take draws and play at both ends of the ice it's hard be the considered the best forward.

Up until this pint Giordano must be considered in this argument but not playing the last 20-25 games will deter him from a Norris.

As for best D you know a team's system has a huge factor in a players ability. The Canadiens do not play a run an gun style of play. They collapse. The D is encouraged to chip it off the glass, not take chances, always think safe. To suggest Karlsson would have 90 points playing for the Habs is a straight out fallacy. He wouldn't be allowed to play the style of play to which he is accustomed. And if he tried it then he'd be stapoled to the bench.

Not saying he is a liability in his own zone but his constant offensive pressure would not go overly well with Mike.

As for who is the best, impossible to say. PK sucked the first 25 games or so but has been dominant since. Is he better than Doughty, Weber, Keith, Letang. I don;t think it;s fair to say one has the edge over the other at all.

His GF/60 is 2.59
His GA/60 is 2.50

It's a positive differential yes, however not a big one

T.J Brodie who' is solid in both ends

GF/60 2.47
GA/60 1.89

Aren't goals not the end result of corsi? Corsi=shots=scoring chances=goals

If Karlsson provides so much offense, why doesn't his team score more per 60 min played than just about every other top defender?
- sbroads24

Different system and different team - i'm not arguing that Karlsson is the best defenseman. My only point was that i dont believe it is necessary to play the PK to be considered one of the best defensemen.

Unless you are absolutely lapping the field in points, like Lemieux and Gretz did, I don't think it's possible to be the best forward as a winger.

He's a victim of his position unfortunately.

If you don't take draws and play at both ends of the ice it's hard be the considered the best forward.
- Charliebox

You are proving my point

Why is Karlsson absolved from having to do all of the little things like penalty killing, taking defensive zone starts, physicality in front of the net etc, etc. Yet it's fine to consider him the best based on the offense he provides.

Yet Ovechkin has to be a great two way player to be considered the best despite him being the best goal scorer?

I agree he will get paid. He could maintain that high level of play or he couldn't. It's really hard to tell when a player will start to decline. A guy like Brad Richards coming off PPG seasons in Dallas just fell off out of nowhere. A guy like Redden is an all star in Ottawa and just turns to a shell. Scott Gomez is traded after a solid year in NY and just stops being an NHL player. Boychuk could just lose a step and turn into a shell any year of that deal or he could be a stud like Timmonen until he retires. It's a big risk is all.
- rangerdanger94

Everyone except Glen Sather knew Redden was on the downswing. The guy was pretty terrible for two consecutive seasons before Sather decided to throw a bag of money at him.

Same deal with Gomez. While he wasn't terrible, he wasn't worth what he was paid... and it was obvious with him too, that he was on the downswing.

Boychuck, on the other hand, seems to be getting better and better.

I don't think it's a fair comparison.

Notice how all these guys are on playoff teams, except Karlsson?

Put Karlsson on the Habs, Pens, Kings or Hawks and the kid will be close to 90pts every season.

Karlsson is on a team that lacks a true #1 center and really only has one top line player at all (Bobby Ryan). Karlsson is not playing on the Sens of the early 2000s. Ottawa is a mediocre team at best and a poor team without EK.

Sure, he's mostly offensive, but at some point, one has to realize that if your team is scoring a ton of goals while the particular guy is on the ice and spending 70% of every sift in the offensive end, then offense>defense.

Bobby Orr was a 'mostly offensive' Dman too, and no one will argue that he's the best of all time.

Karlsson IS the Sens. You can't say the same about any of these other guys, except possibly Weber.
- Charliebox

You are proving my point

Why is Karlsson absolved from having to do all of the little things like penalty killing, taking defensive zone starts, physicality in front of the net etc, etc. Yet it's fine to consider him the best based on the offense he provides.

Yet Ovechkin has to be a great two way player to be considered the best despite him being the best goal scorer?
- sbroads24

I'm not proving your point at all. I'm saying you can't be the best forward as a winger.

You can be the best defenseman as a defenseman.

cant have PK on my list as he is dirty, cheap, what ever you want to call it. Weber is my #1 as he is limited by nothing, big, fast, strong, skilled, smart, tough, disciplined.... every other Dman might have a few but not all.
- richardson30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5l-zZ9ylXY

Weber has had some questionable moments as far as cheap/dirty moves...and he has more penalty minutes than subban this year also so i dont know if disciplined is one of his strongest attributes.

The NHL and those who follow it has seemingly been divided into two groups: people who welcome statistical analysis as the basis for evaluating players and people who feel it's better to trust your eyes.

This paragraph, and most of the generalizations you make about people who disagree with you, are just plain wrong. There are people who think advanced stats are the be all end all, like you. Then there are the people who think statistics are a tool which have to be used appropriately to be have value.

You constantly take a tool which measures shots for & shots against, then make an unsupported leap in logic that is the same thing as measuring time of possession, then make another unsupported leap in logic that extra time of possession is more important than play without possession.

If one team's defensemen start in the defensive zone and keeps the opposition to the outside, letting them get a few harmless shots from bad angles, then recovers the puck, get it to the forwards, and the forwards walk into the oppositions end, cycle for a while, then go right around the defensemen, and score; nearly all the advanced stats you would interpret as showing the defensemen of the team who got scored on were better.

People don't have a problem with advanced stats. They have a problem with the mis-application of advanced stats. At one time, people thought of plus/minus as an advanced stat, and some treated it as extremely important. While others only cared about it as far as what it actually measured. Now it's fairly well understood you can't base arguments as to who is better off of it. You are just the new version of people who were all about plus/minus back in the day. While reasonable hockey people treat advanced stats the way they should be treated. As a good way to view information, but only information on what they actually measure.

Yes, because Drew Doughty plays on an East Coast team.
- jmatchett383

So does Shea Weber

- WaterBoy

He's already had two seasons of 78 and 74 points.

You don't think he could get 15 more points playing on teams filled with superstars?

Really?

I probably shouldn't have thrown the Habs in there, but you put Karlsson behind Crosby/Malkin or Kane/Towes/Hossa/.. the kid would easily get another 15 points per year.

Hell, even Ovie/Backstrom, Getzlaf/Perry, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, Tavares, Stamkos, The crazy line in St. Louis. There are plenty of teams in this league that Karlsson would absolutely dominate with.

I'm sure Orr played a lot of key shifts in the defensive zone too, which Karlsson does poorly or not much at all. It's why he has incredibly minimal PK time.

I'm sorry but if you cant be trusted enough to be on the ice when the play is primarily in your own zone, then as a "defensemen" it's tough for me to consider him the best
- sbroads24

I would think the main reason is because you wouldn't want your star defenseman to be out there blocking shots on the PK risking injuries. Even if he was the best PK defenseman ever, I wouldn't want Karlsson out there blocking shots 82 games a year when you have other guys you can use for that. Maybe in the playoffs when the game or the series was on the line ok but regular season is not worth the risk of injury.

Eastern bias. To not have Giordano in there is just retarded.
- TandA4Flames

3 of his top 5 play in the west.............east bias.

He's already had two seasons of 78 and 74 points.

You don't think he could get 15 more points playing on teams filled with superstars?

Really?

I probably shouldn't have thrown the Habs in there, but you put Karlsson behind Crosby/Malkin or Kane/Towes/Hossa/.. the kid would easily get another 15 points per year.

Hell, even Ovie/Backstrom, Getzlaf/Perry, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, Tavares, Stamkos, The crazy line in St. Louis. There are plenty of teams in this league that Karlsson would absolutely dominate with.
- Charliebox

I don't think its as simple as saying Karlsson gets X points on the Sens so if you put him on a more offensive team he'll have X + 15 points.

He could score more or he could score less. Yandle put up a crap ton of points on an offensively challenged Arizona team this year and isn't exactly tearing the scoresheet up here in NY yet.

I'd have to say Doughty is the best Dman. does it all every night, his points sort of come in spurts but i think on a team thats highly offensive he'd be way more productive (even thought he already is for a D man in that capacity). When we went end-to-end and scored in the SCF against the devils i was heartbroken

I don't think its as simple as saying Karlsson gets X points on the Sens so if you put him on a more offensive team he'll have X + 15 points.

He could score more or he could score less. Yandle put up a crap ton of points on an offensively challenged Arizona team this year and isn't exactly tearing the scoresheet up here in NY yet.
- rangerdanger94

Yandle will be a disappointment

I'd have to say Doughty is the best Dman. does it all every night, his points sort of come in spurts but i think on a team thats highly offensive he'd be way more productive (even thought he already is for a D man in that capacity). When we went end-to-end and scored in the SCF against the devils i was heartbroken
- SteveJ123

He talks mad poop on the ice too.

Yandle will be a disappointment
- SteveJ123

You wish

He's been pretty good so far. A lot better defensively than anyone gives him credit for (except James I suppose) and while he's not producing points yet, which is expected since he's new to the team, you can see his offensive talent and skill with subtle plays he makes under pressure every shift.

In Karlsson's Norris trophy winning season he had 78 pts in 81 games played with a +16. The team's goal differential was +9.

That was the last season he got to play with a legit #1 NHL centerman (Spezza did play two more seasons but missed the whole lockout season with injury and battled a bad back and looked absolutely terrible last season).

Before he got his Achilles sliced, he had 14 pts in 17 games played and was a +8.

And this is on a mediocre team that barely snuck into the playoffs both seasons.

Last season, he was still recovering from his injury and was anchored to awful Dmen for the majority of the season.

He's just starting to get his form back now. If you honestly sit down and watch 5 Sens games in a row, you'll realize just how good this guy is.. at both ends of the ice.
- Charliebox

karlsson is a fantastic offensive d. hardly a great defender in his own end, or in the N-zone. just not consistent enough. while I completely value his game, id want him on my team, but that said I want to be able to have my number one d able to be a well rounded player. Someone I can count on for offence, but also want in my own end for all the major def situations. something that you get from letang subban doughty. While id say karlsson has got probably a bit more skill than those 3, they don't allow themselves to be caught out of pos, or are not asked to take the same liberties that OTT's coaching staff affords to karlsson. If subban was used the same way as karlsson do you not think hed be able to score the same amount of points? Id probably say yes. Its system to system, team to team, they all employ different rushes and strategies and each player is used differently.

Tough debate, but karlsson leads the way offensively, but far from the most rounded or gifted def. Id take the other 3 first, with karlsson a close second.

Just to say it again, the way big buff gets moved from d to fwd, that's something id kill to see from ott. Get karlsson to take a winger pos, less def needed, but man what vis and shot. Even a center pos, he could probably excel way more at the (C) pos than being used on D.

You wish

He's been pretty good so far. A lot better defensively than anyone gives him credit for (except James I suppose) and while he's not producing points yet, which is expected since he's new to the team, you can see his offensive talent and skill with subtle plays he makes under pressure every shift.
- rangerdanger94

I'm with ya haha was just busting your balls. I was really confused as to why they made that trade. I think duclair will be a stud but that obviously remains to be seen. Yandle deff helps the team become even more of a contender this year. Really interested to see how it plays out. East is pretty lame this year I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rangers back in the final if Hank can come back and play like hank. Although if Price stays to pace this might be the year the Habs make it back to the final

He's already had two seasons of 78 and 74 points.

You don't think he could get 15 more points playing on teams filled with superstars?

Really?

I probably shouldn't have thrown the Habs in there, but you put Karlsson behind Crosby/Malkin or Kane/Towes/Hossa/.. the kid would easily get another 15 points per year.

Hell, even Ovie/Backstrom, Getzlaf/Perry, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, Tavares, Stamkos, The crazy line in St. Louis. There are plenty of teams in this league that Karlsson would absolutely dominate with.
- Charliebox

silly argument, put anyone with Crosby and the players you listed and they get better. again it comes down to systems. I doubt karlsson would be given the same leach with a lot of these teams.

I'm with ya haha was just busting your balls. I was really confused as to why they made that trade. I think duclair will be a stud but that obviously remains to be seen. Yandle deff helps the team become even more of a contender this year. Really interested to see how it plays out. East is pretty lame this year I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rangers back in the final if Hank can come back and play like hank. Although if Price stays to pace this might be the year the Habs make it back to the final
- SteveJ123

I actually think the East is pretty competitive this year. The Metro is at least.

Rangers are really going for it this year obviously with this deal. Hank is 33 so the window is closing. Gotta go all out the next couple years.

Besides Pacioretty, who are the Habs true top line players that would propel Karlsson to 90 points?
- sbroads24

Well, there is... euh... Dale Weise?